[CTQ Smartcast] Lessons in Managing and Accelerating An Organization's People Ecosystem, With Krish Shankar

Krish Shankar is the Group Head (Human Resources) at Infosys and has extensive experience across various HR roles in companies like Eicher, Levers, Bharti Airtel and Phillips. He has also authored a book ‘Catalyse: Power Up Your People Ecosystem’, which is a playbook that can be used and applied by business and people leaders alike.

In this Smartcast, hosted by CTQ co-founder BV Harish Kumar, we have discussed in-depth his book, how to conduct interviews for different levels and how founders can apply lessons from his book in their growing organisation.

 
 

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(Read the shownotes below or skip to the transcript)

SOME OF THE THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT

  • Krish’s book writing journey

  • The role of motivation in achieving goals

  • Jobs To Be Done framework and how can one apply it to their company?

  • Is it wise to rename the HR function?

  • SBEM framework and how it contributes to the hiring process?

  • Tips to identify the right candidate

  • Who must be the custodian of a company’s culture?

  • How can leaders and founders bring more emotion into work?

  • How can founders apply the lessons from Catalyse?

PLUS

  • Future relevance of corporate hubs, the traditional interview process and Bollywood

AND

  • Krish as a sports writer

LINKS TO BOOKS, PEOPLE AND ARTICLES MENTIONED IN THE SMARTCAST

BOOKS

PEOPLE

OTHERS

If you enjoyed this Smartcast, you will also like The Relevance Of Employer Branding For Companies, With Adithya Venkatesan

TRANSCRIPT OF THE EPISODE

00:00:00
Harish: Krish Shankar is the Group Head (Human Resources) at Infosys. Krish has worked in various HR roles across companies like Eicher, Levers, Bharti Airtel and Phillips. That's what a rich HR experience looks like. So, when Krish wrote the book ‘Catalyse: Power Up Your People Ecosystem’, I think it was also a great way for him to give back to the ecosystem, by sharing his learning from his rich experience. The book reads like a playbook that can be used and applied by business and people leaders alike. Krish has leaned on frameworks, like jobs to be done, to rethink the role of HR using first principles. I personally liked the title ‘Catalyse’ as the role of the catalyst is to accelerate the chemical reaction, and in this case the people in your organisation. In this conversation, we covered different aspects of the book, his steps about how to conduct interviews for different levels and how founders can apply lessons from his book in their growing organisation. This is a masterclass by an HR practitioner of the highest level. So, if you work in HR or are a business leader who wants to power up their people ecosystem, you will love this.

00:01:38
Harish: Hi. Welcome Krish. Welcome to the CTQ Smartcast.

00:01:42
Krish: Hi Harish. Pleasure to be here.

00:01:45
Harish: So, we will put you on the other side of the table. I found out about this question, so, I thought I'd pose this question to you first. So, in terms of career and achievements, what are you really proud of?

00:02:01
Krish: It's a tough one to say. But I think if I look back in various places, the people who have grown from the companies that I have been working and taken on bigger roles, I think that's what makes me really proud of. I can count now many CHROs or many senior people in different companies who have worked together. It’s not because of my influence or anything, but just that some have worked with me, some have been part of my teams, but I've seen them grow and take on bigger roles. And I think that's probably what I would see as something that gives me the greatest satisfaction.

00:02:42
Harish: Yeah. In this case, we will not say correlation or don't confuse correlation with coalition. And I think I'll go out on a limb and say probably, it is the coalition that we are talking about.

00:02:54
Krish: Yeah. We have to err on the side of what makes sense for us, but you're right. There are many examples. For example, people who have worked in HR, within Unilever. I mean, there are a lot of Unilever people in Singapore that I've worked with, people from China, Vietnam, South Africa, Sri Lanka, who then were with me, but you've given them opportunity and they've all become CHROs in big companies. So, when I look all around, I think that gives me the greatest satisfaction.

00:03:26
Harish: Yeah. So, there's this concept of brag doc, right? What are the things that you can brag about and put it in the document? So, you didn't mention the book, which we want to cover a lot in detail today. So, how did this book come about? Seems like a culmination of your thoughts and ruminations and also a collection of thoughts from your peers, colleagues, friends. So how did this come about?

00:03:54
Krish: Well, I was actually thinking of writing a book, but it was on a very different subject. I thought I'd write a book on how to manage emotions in the workplace because I did a doctorate on that and I thought I would get something more practical in that. That was my idea. But this was very much a serendipity. One day, Mr. Gopalakrishnan, Vice-Chairman of Tata Sons called me and said to me that there is a publisher there who is keen on doing an HR book. You should write it. The publisher reached out. And then I just dilly dallied. I said, I don't know what to write. But I think during the second half of 2020, I thought, let me start thinking about it. And when I started thinking about it, it blew. There was a flow to it. And I would sit on a weekend and write one chapter. So that's how it was. So, it's more about how do you make HR simpler? How do you make it more contemporary? That’s number one. And number two, how do you take the more practical aspects of HR to both business people and HR leaders, so they can really learn from various experiences. So, this is meant for a larger audience, not only for HR, but for business people. It is meant to bring a lot more contemporary ideas to HR. It's looking at best practices from my experience, plus the many CHROs and CEOs I have spoken to. So, it's more like a playbook of what HR is now? That was the idea.

00:05:32
Harish: Right. And we also found out in our background research that there was always this bug of writing for you. You also wanted to be a sportswriter. So, when did that get left in your journey?

00:05:47
Krish: Yeah, I think I used to like writing. When I was younger, I used to do a little bit of trying to write some essays and after that I kind of gave up. And one of the things that I always liked was to be a sports journalist, to follow great sporting events and talk about that was one of the things. But we move on in our lives. Maybe one day I will do that. Maybe the next phase of my career.

00:06:22
Harish: Yeah. Which were the iconic sporting moments that you really wanted to be a part of and wanted to write about it?

00:06:29
Krish: I think partly cricket is there, but I will also be looking at other sports, for example, the Football World Cup and Olympics. And then the kind of things athletes go through for that two minute of glory or spotlight, that's what I wanted to really talk about.

00:07:01
Harish: Yeah. So, coming back to the book, Krish. Can you talk about why you wanted to call this book, why did he give this title of Catalyse? Your thoughts on that?

00:07:14
Krish: The title came up when I started writing. The title I looked at was maximising your people's potential. That's how I started writing a lot about how do you maximise your potential? That's how it started. And then as I wrote et cetera, and towards the end, I thought, let's see what it is. The idea is that there is a concept which I read. You have momentum, there is a momentum curve that goes on, which is like, you continue doing what you do. But if you want to really bend the curve, say you want to grow faster or do something different, you must do things differently. And that's where you got to catalyse some action. So that concept stayed with me. Things are going well, but if you really want to catalyse and get the most out of your people and reach the next higher curve, then these are some things you can do. And that's how I looked at Catalyse as the title. And when I was at XLRI which was from 1982 to 1984, we had a professor called CGK Nair and I still remember one of the things he said that one of the roles of HR is somewhat like a lightning conductor. You got to really get the charge and make it work. So, this stayed with me and that's how I got into this name.

00:08:40
Harish: Yeah. In fact, it's interesting that we spoke about sports writing sometime back and the reasoning that you gave for how you came upon this title. While reading your book, I kept going back to Paddy Upton's book, The Barefoot Coach, where he talks about the role of the coach in the success of the Indian cricket team, 2008-11 that culminated with the World Cup win, small things that they did. Again, a very different context of how to deal with a sports team, especially a team like the Indian cricket team. They are all celebrities. They cannot do things on the ground for them, right? They have to get these people to go and perform on the ground. If you think of it, it's very similar to what you're talking about here. The catalyst doesn't do the reaction. It is the necessary condition for the chemical equation and to also accelerate it, right. I just found it interesting to draw those parallels. Having said that, Professor BJ Fogg, who talks about Tiny Habits has this very interesting theory of not being able to affect motivation. He says motivation is something that humans can only surf, so there are times when motivation is very high there's times when motivation. You need to create those necessary conditions, such that when the motivation is high, you can make the change happen. So, can you juxtapose that with what you have written about Catalyse and know how to think about this from the motivation standpoint?

00:10:17
Krish: So, if you look at any organisation, right? I mean, let's step back. I think the point is that there are some people who always feel we need to change. There are some areas we need to improve. So, there's always that thing there. Now the question is, why do we fail, why would we don't do it? And that's where this whole thing of motivation comes. And I thought there are three or four gaps that we have. I think one of the gaps is really an intent gap. Sometimes you're too busy with operational stuff. You're too busy running around and then you don't really think about it there, or your priorities are different. Let me get the firefighting done, whatever it is that the leadership says, let's focus on that? That's the first, you don't have any intent. Second, you may have an intent, but you're not really good at creating the solution. You're not able to really think about it. And the other motivation is lack of ideas. Putting the right things together. So, designing the right solution to make it effective. That's the second one. The third is an execution gap, which is clearly, you may have the solution, but in HR, most or everything has to be done by the rest of the company. HR can provide something, but unless the managers, the leader and people do something you will not be able to do anything. So, the role of HR is catalysing action. It's about designing, talking and getting your managers and leaders on board and making that execution happen. And now technology is very important. So therefore, you want to really do a lot of technology because you want to scale it, so that's important. So that there's that execution thing. And there I think this whole motivation is to really create the motivation for change to people and that's where this whole thing is about, when is the right moment to do something. You have to look for it and maybe try and find it. Sometimes the company's doing well. We'll say we are going to change. In some cases, we are not doing well, maybe we want to change this. Things like performance management, it is always good to change when the company's doing well, then you're relaxed, and you can also make those changes. So, you want to find the right time for setup. I think the last gap we have is maybe we don't have the resources, either it’s money or budget or people or whatever. So, to your question, I think it's a little long answer, but I think for each we have to find the right motivation. I think for the first intent, I think this motivation is all about getting ideas, sparking ideas, benchmarking, envisioning where I should be, that's where this book probably helps. There are some ideas and then the solution. So, I've tried to really focus on all these three elements, think big about what you can do in terms of the vision. Think about what are the elements of a solution that you can do. But at the same time also don't forget the execution because you've got to have the right things to get execution done, so I think that's what I would really look at. We've got to find the right motivation and the right levers for each of those.

00:13:23
Harish: So again, a follow up question to that, Krish. What you spoke about is great because people, companies need to buy their time to find the right opportunity to move different levers. But what we've also seen is that these are things that come because you need to be in that space where you're relaxed and now, you're ready to change. You need to get to a certain point; you cannot be fighting existential problems to get there right. And that's where those bad habits and bad culture all set in. So how do you get out of this vicious cycle then, that unless you do the right things, you're not going to get better, but a lot of times just to get that stability in life, to be able to do things, companies seem, I mean, that's a story that they're telling themselves that, yeah, we need to know something we need to think very here and now. So how do we get out of this vicious cycle?

00:14:20
Krish: I think most companies, because they’re running around getting things done, they would not be able to do the transformation that is also needed. And therefore, either the capacity is not there to change or there's too much in there in the front. I think that's a challenge that they've got to step back and that's where the role of leadership comes in, the leadership of the company, as well as the HR leadership, saying, what is our vision? What should we be? And then try and put in maybe teams to really make those differences or get responses to take something. So, you've got to find some time. If you don't have the vision, then you will still be working at it. So, I think the only way to do it is the leadership thinking about it, the leadership saying, I want to make a difference, both the HR leadership and the leadership of the organisation. And they can do it. And I've seen many start-ups where they've been fronting, but then the founder or co-founder says, we want to do something different and then they work, they get the HR person, they think, and they try and do something. So, there is this realisation. So firstly, you realise that I have to move to the next stop. I can't continue this momentum. And when do they get that as important and getting that realisation, but also finding time to make that happen. The right team and the mindset are very important. Yeah. It's a challenge. Sometimes the investors ask for it, saying, why don't you invest in your team of people. So, I think it's somewhere getting the mind space of the leadership that this is important.

00:16:18
Harish: Yeah. And going back to the cricketing analogy, I think it's like the inside out field that you need to protect the singles as well as the boundaries. You need to do both.

00:16:29
Krish: Yeah.

00:16:30
Harish: So, one thing that I really liked about your book was the use of the frameworks. There were quite a few frameworks that I was aware of and I'm a big fan of some of these things, especially the Jobs To Be Done framework by Clayton Christensen. And then you use that to make your point in a very interesting way. So quickly, if you want to talk about some of the frameworks that we've spoken about, the Jobs To Be Done, and the SBEM framework that you have talked about, then I'll have some follow-up questions on how to actually apply that in a company.

00:17:07
Krish: Yeah. I think the Jobs To Be Done is clearly something that; I listened to Clayton Christensen when I was at Unilever in Singapore, he did a session for us, and then Unilever adopted that in some ways and discuss in talking about how they will look at their objectives or goals they created must-win battles or jobs to be done, that kind of lingo. But when you really look at the heart of it, it is to find out what really needs to be done and what is the job that needs to be done and therefore decide how you want to do it. And Clayton Christensen gives a great example of this milkshake, which I thought was a very nice example. Maybe we should read the book to see what the example is. But if you look at it, what are the jobs to be done? I think that really helps you focus on the outcome. And in HR, one of the things is that sometimes we are too much functional or silo driven, and there are different functions in HR, which kind of collide with each other. And therefore, we become too functional in our thinking. So, the Jobs To Be Done really looks at what is the outcome you need? What is it that needs to be done? You have to be drilling down, identify that and then say how do I make that happen. So, I think that was bringing a more outcome focus to HR. I think the other one really is about what talent is. I think the principles are that there is no one talent which is great for all. A talent which is great for you, may not be great for me or this company or that company, but each company has to define what is great. So therefore, there is no universal talent. And that's where I said and there was always this, why do you run after one group? Because that's what somebody is running after may not be the talent for you. Think about the four things. And that's how the idea came up off the skills, behaviours, and behaviours in HR, we used to call competencies or whatever you want to go with. Simple thing. What behaviours would we like to see the person? What skills, what are the things that he or she should be able to do then comes the right experiences. It may not be very important, but in some jobs, it really helps build the right foundation. What kind of jobs a person should have done to really help or the background? But the last one, the mindset is very important. The mindset may not be very important for early career people because we are still developing and growing, but once you reach mid-career or senior, this mindset is very important because by that time, your mindset is quite strong. You're either a growth-oriented person or a person who's very much about managing costs. I'm taking two different things, right? You’re either a person who is focused on driving risk or someone who wants to really ensure compliance and controls. And that mindset is important, especially when you're really looking at organisations. So therefore, I think these four are important. As you go higher, the skills become less important. What becomes more important are the behaviours, the mindset and the experiences. As you are early on, maybe the skills and behaviours are more important. So, I think you've to keep these in mind, as you start planning what is the right talent that you need to look for.

00:20:48
Harish: Yeah. So, I was reminded of the discovery versus delivery skills that Clayton Christensen talks about in the Innovator's DNA as well. I was thinking that, when you mentioned, how people after growing the skills change or rather the focus of their work also changes. Also, an interesting thing that you mentioned was the positioning of the HR function in the company and how it should be catalysed. If you just look at the two terms - human resources, most companies will have roles/ designations in the realm of HR or people versus catalyst. Catalyst is so much more action driven and you will feel it as an aspirational thing. You would want to join a group, which is a catalyst. But HR seems a bit bland. Any take on that. Do you think companies should actively rename their HR teams to Catalysts?

00:21:46
Krish: I think there are some companies that are trying to do that. They started to now move HR to People & Change or to People & Culture, and all those other kinds of things that they're talking about. I think some other young start-ups do this: People Evangelist or People Catalyst. I think the big companies tend to refrain because you can promise a lot more, but you’ll not be able to achieve it. So, you want to be careful and catalysing or what you sometimes, you know, it may be a big name, but what can you really do? The whole idea of HR I think is changing. HR in the past strongly was very much admin or IR oriented and things have moved over time. And this concept of HR as resources, like any other resources, you have people, you have money, you have things, so you're managing sources. That's how this thing came in. But I think over time, things are changing and now we've got to really move to the mindset that listening is one of the most important sources of value. You can rename it. I mean somebody told us that it should really be called human potential rather than human resources. So therefore, you can decide. I think that name helps, but I think it's more about the spirit of what you want to achieve.

00:23:08
Harish: Yeah. So, you mentioned the SBEM framework, skills, behaviours and what kind of experience and the mindset. So how should people be thinking about this when they are actually looking at hiring and I'm talking about people who are not really trained, or don't have the experience of HR, right? So, these are founders, and they know what it takes for people to be working in their company. But in most of the smaller companies, they don't really have HR heads. They understand this. They read your book and they say, wow, this is great. How do they then apply something like this in what they are doing?

00:23:50
Krish: Well, I'll say, firstly, they want to be clear about what they want. I think it starts with their own clarity of their strategy. They should know what they want to be known for? Let's say, if we take any start-up, let's say five years from now, what should we be doing and therefore they should be clear about it. Also be clear what jobs need to be done in their company. Let's say grocery delivery start-up, what are the jobs that need to be done for me to be successful in the next five years? Think about those and put it and say, these are the jobs that need to be done. That will tell you what kind of talent is needed? So, clarity starts from strategy. I think don't go and say what people say, but say what you need to get done, and then you go and see what people say, so that's the first step I would tell them. Look at what are the jobs you'd need to get done in the company and then ask to get that job done, what is needed? Think of a grocery delivery company for example. The job that I need to get done is to set up a great automated logistics function. That is where I need and therefore, what is needed to do that and what kind of person is needed. So then once you're clear with that strategy, then you start hiring. Then you say what kind of skills I need to see in that person. What kind of behaviour do I want to see in that person? Normally, most companies that go for the standard stuff, collaborative, ambitious, etc. I think the key thing then is the experiences. And I want to be clear, listen, if this person should have had this kind of experience, because I think I've seen it in the past, like somebody with an experience in a smaller start-up is much better. That's how you write down two or three points, so that it gives you an idea. And last one is mindset. If there is one thing, and that question you got to ask is what is the one thing that will make this person successful? What is the one thing that you need to see in that person? I think that always comes to what they call an attitude or mindset or the X factor. I think then it boils down to the mindset that you need in that person. That's what I would say for the more senior levels. For the more junior levels, I think you need not worry so much about the mindset and stuff, but you've got to say, okay, define for yourself what kind of a company you want to be known as. I want customer focus, or I want total innovation focus. So, I think once you've defined that, look for people with that kind of attainment, people with the right skills and behaviours. And behaviours means that the behaviours that help you with your innovation, I think that's what you need. So, I think a little bit of thinking helps. Recruitment, sometimes we go like a machine gun, looking for who's a good talent and get them. And as one of my head-hunter friends calls me, there is this trophy hunting saying, I want a big name from a big company, get those trophies, but is that relevant? So therefore, I would say, do these steps, think about the jobs to be done, look at what kind of people you need. Then use the SBEM framework to identify the right people for the more senior roles. For lower levels look at what it is that you want the company to be known for? Behaviours are going to be very critical. And then look for those in your people.

00:27:17
Harish: Right. Yeah. So, this resonates a lot with me because a lot of what we do is also in the realm of helping founders articulate their culture. And, when we actually do this exercise with them, we make them go through different aspects of the company from execution to strategy to customer focus. Think about all these things and I keep saying there's a bit of an IKEA effect there, right? Because they've deliberately thought about this, articulated it, then it's very difficult for them to go away from that, now that they've done so much thinking. But the one question that always comes back to us, and that is what I want to post you next is that, yes, I get that this is the kind of experience and mindset that I'm looking for. What people struggle with is the theatre of the interview process, where they know that whoever is coming in, the candidate is at their best and it's like the Instagram version of that person. They'll talk about everything good. So are there any tips and tricks that you know over your years of experience of taking interviews that helps in identifying these kinds of things or should you be even looking at the process with a completely different eye. It's not that half an hour or one hour of interaction, that is what should be decided. Your take on that.

00:28:38
Krish: Well, there are lots of things that people use, but I have found that for most senior people, I think a less formal setting is very important. You can talk to them in a place which is a bit informal, just so that they don't have to play or something like that or somewhere, where you can chat in a less formal way. It will help you really break down some of those differences. Meet one or two times, get other people to also see so that you get a feeling of two or three people and all that is very important for a senior person because, in interviewing a senior person you also have to see that they are selecting you. So, you have to talk about it, and you've got to ensure there is clarity that it's not only you, but you also have to sell the company. So, you've got to do both, and I think that's important there. I think references are also important. I think in this, you may have to really go to a job, because the current job is difficult, but talk to people who've worked just to understand what is the mindset, et cetera. So their references sometimes give you a clue about that person, especially the senior leaders. So, I think these would be the thing. There are some companies, for example, I've seen a company like Bosch which really uses a behavioural event interview by a non-thing, a person who doesn't know, just to interview, just to identify what it is. And they may give you feedback whether you may choose to take it or not, but at least it is an independent third party who has no context about it, who just, you know, look at it. So I think that also sometimes helps getting a completely different view of a person who doesn't know this job or the company, but really comes from a more of a competency ‘What has this person done?’ perspective. So those are things that would be very useful to have more senior level people. I think at the junior level, it is all about using them to do real case studies and talk about examples of case studies or talk them through simulations. I think that really helps the younger people, because they will talk about what they have done and then we can talk about a case, at least you can find out their thinking or analytical ability, plus what they actually did in their earlier job. So put both together.

00:31:11
Harish: And any go to questions that you use?

00:31:15
Krish: Not really. I have not interviewed a lot in the last few years, but I think clearly two questions, what are some of the things they've done that they are really proud of and then maybe go deeper into what they did, how they did it, etc. Or the other one I would like, what is the one problem that they are most frustrated with and what did they do about it and how did they do it? And finally, in the sense if they were to really trace their development over the last three or four years, what has happened, how have they developed themselves. So, these are probably three or four questions I find useful to understand what they have done.

00:31:56
Harish: Yeah. I think these are great questions. We will definitely list them down and put them in bold in the transcript for people to pick up. So, one interesting thing that you mentioned when companies are trying to hire senior people, they're also trying to sell their company. And that is probably one of the many interactions that a potential candidate is having with that company. Right. And that's also a great way of actually conveying the company's culture. So, if you think about it, there's so many different touch points that I may have from the security person in an office to the receptionist, to another person who's interviewing me and finally once you join. There are so many different touch points. So, who ideally should be not custodian of the company's culture, so that all these touch points are sort of integrated, both in a small company, probably it's going to be the founder, senior leaders who can drive a lot of personal charisma, but as things grow bigger and the kind of companies that you've worked with few thousands of people, how do you make sure that this has been maintained?

00:33:12
Krish: I think that's where it’s a collective responsibility of the leadership. HR can help show the mirror, show what has happened, get regular discussions on it, use engagement surveys or whatever. But yeah, I think this is what the collective leadership takes responsibility saying this is what it is. The top 20 or top 50 people in the company have to collectively take responsibility for this culture because culture is what we all collectively behave; our day-to-day behaviour is culture. And I think this culture part is very interesting. When anybody talks about culture, we all talk of the simple human element of the culture. Respect is not there, arrogance, people cannot respond on time. Those kinds of things. That’s how people determine the culture of the company. But to look at culture, you look at two levels. I think the first one is a strategic element of culture that they want. And this is what kind of behaviour will help them be successful, or it will help them differentiate in the market. I mean, there are great examples. Like Walmart says, it's all about frugal and cost conscious and they want that culture all across and they work on it. You take an Amazon, which will say it's all about innovation and customer focus, and that we want to work on. So, I think you've got to choose one or two things. That's going to be distinctive for you either, it's your focus on innovation or your customer or your product or service. You've got to think of that because that really is the most strategic element of your company. Then comes the second part, which is what are the behaviours that you think people want to see around. And then I think most companies will be similar. You can't say that I'm not going to respect people. They'll all want respect. They all want integrity. They all want inclusion. So that's important. But you would identify and say, these are the three or four things I want to do and then focus on it. So therefore, these are these two parts. The human part is non-negotiable and it is actually similar across all companies. But the difference is how companies make it come alive. That's where the difference is. Once you do it, how do you make it come alive? And that's where the role of the leadership comes in. That's where the role of the routines that you've put in, the day-to-day practices or routines that you put in to make this happen. That's where the training of the middle managers comes in because they are the ones who will make the culture work, but how are they aware and how are they kind of working and what feedback are they getting and how are they getting evaluated is important. And then a continuous measurement. So, I think there are four key things. Your description of what you want to do, your commitment of your leadership and everyone aligned to it, your social architecture working towards it, the middle managers, their training, recognition, how is their performance evaluation because that has to work in sync and lastly, your feedback on how things are going. So, I think that's what I would look at culture, your strategic part, as well as the human part. Be clear and then try the differences on how we really make it happen.

00:36:45
Harish:  Right. And, just extending this, we talked about the big companies, right? So is there a problem of scale when you are trying to do this across so many centres, so many countries for a company like Infosys. And I'm speaking as an ex-Infosys, so I know what it takes. So, does that scale also then affect what you are talking about?

00:37:13
Krish: Yeah, of course. See when you have to get something done across so many people, different countries, there are many variables that come. Sometimes people are also changing, in the sense that maybe the completely new leadership in a place and therefore, they are trying to do something. So, it is a mix of many things. Maybe the culture is strong in one area, but maybe in a smaller country, which is just starting, I think it might not be there. So, you've got to start working on it. Sometimes the country's cultures also play a role. Maybe Mexico likes something different or Nordics may like something because they believe in certain things and all those are somethings that you've got to keep track of. Therefore, it's constant stuff. It's about talking about it. It's about leaders talking about it. It's what measuring. It is about recognizing people and that's how it is. And you can sense that there is a large company across things, as long as that is broadly like that thing, then it's fine. There are certain non-negotiables would you say there's an integrity, sexual harassment. These are all clearly areas where we are going to be, there's going to be no nonsense and this is what we do, and that is clear. But there will be other softer elements of culture. And what is respect, what do you mean by responding on time? Those are all a little different and you have to really start defining it and say, this is what we would like.

00:38:44
Harish: And, how much does marketing or rather thinking of it as marketing help in propagating culture in a company? Because what you're talking about, I often draw this parallel that if the culture is a product and your internal employees are your audience, then you need to think of it as marketing, where you are actually thinking segments. There are the senior people who actually know the culture, but they need to be treated differently as compared to the newcomers who need to be indoctrinated in your culture quickly, that's where the quick ramp up comes. You need to give them enough case studies or use cases of how this culture really works, right? What are these anecdotes? So, does that help in just surfacing these stories of, like you said, what respect really means in my company, how does that help?

00:39:45
Krish: Yeah. I would say marketing is probably there, but it's using communication technologies. I think it's very important because we also, like, for example, you look at different personas within a company that is a fresher kind of a persona for three, four years, then that is a mid-manager. Then within that you have two or three different things as a group, which to say, I am keen on learning. There's another group who says I am keen on compensation. So, you have those different personas. You have people who've been with the company for long, over 10 years, and there are people who've just joined. So therefore, there's a huge thing. So, yeah, you're right. And, communication becomes very important when you are to look at these personas, you're going to look at what are the ways to talk to them because email is going out of fashion. So how do you really get to that? So therefore, is there a different way? So, we have to try various things and on videos, blogs, etc., you have to get the storytelling in a big way. How do you get stories told and how do you get leaders and others to talk about it? So, in a large company, this communication is actually becoming a very important thing. Also, it's getting tough to reach people so easily. It was easy when they were all sitting here, but now they're all across, how do you reach them? Unless they know they want to choose to come. So how do you make it interesting? So, it's a challenge for communications specialists to see how you really communicate with people.

00:41:15
Harish: Right. In the respect of the context of communication, as well as generally you talk about the role of emotion and that seems to be something that is generally missing, right? Most companies will have engineers who will take pride in rational thinking, and they would want to sort of get rid of emotion, wherever possible and that's like a default. And now there is enough evidence to show you that emotion plays a big role in changing behaviour and getting people motivated. So once people identify that there's a blind spot, they have that inclination to change it. How do they change this? How do leaders, founders bring more emotion into work? How do you do that?

00:42:13
Krish: Well, I think there are two things here. We just have to be careful. I think people look at emotions in the more popular context that he is emotional, or she is emotional or whatever. It is that the person is either getting angry or expressing their emotions in a way which really puts off that. That's the popular meaning of emotion. They say he's an emotional person. He's moody. These are the kinds of words that people use. I think we just have to remove that popular context and understand that there are collective emotions that people go through. And I think those collective emotions are important. And I think that's what a founder needs to know that these collective emotions are a great source of getting things done. If you want to grow a company and you want to really make people do ambitious stuff, you need to have the collective emotion, a simple thing you need to have amongst your team, let's say optimism and maybe pride. I think that is needed. How do you build that? Because once you have that emotion that will build the energy to really achieve those things. So therefore, you have to understand the role that these collective emotions play. It's not about one person being moody, that’s the more populous level. But I'm talking about understanding the emotions that are generally driving people, understanding that collective emotions which can be used to really manage your kind of business. For example, if a company is saying, I want to really shut down one unit and what is the best way to do it? What kind of collective emotions we need to see the company, maybe the collective emotion of compassion. And if they see that and if employees see that, then I think you can manage the change much more easily. And I think those are the kinds of things that they want to keep in mind. So, I think most people feel that when they're doing something, they're not checking if there is the right emotion behind it. Let's say recognition. When I joined the company, we never worried about recognition. We were never recognized. We never got anything, and it all went on. But now, thanks to social media, thanks to a lot more work, recognition is becoming important. People also want it. They're seeing other companies putting posts on LinkedIn and all kinds of stuff. So, the need for recognition is in place. But I think the key thing is as a manager, you've got to understand what are the, what are the emotions that need to go along with this recognition, which will make it stick. And I think there are two emotions I find are the emotions of pride and the emotions of gratitude. If these two come along with recognition, then it becomes true recognition. And what is pride? Pride is not about, I passed out from an IIM. Well, that's not pride, it's pride like say the Indian cricket team, which has over 10 years, won various tournaments and now the people can feel proud. And that pride will make them fight more. So, the pride of overcoming something and achieving something. That's pride. Gratitude is saying, listen, I'm really thankful for this because I'm thankful to all my colleagues and I'm thankful to the company for. If you get those emotions along with recognition, then that recognition becomes truly useful. Otherwise, it is one more paper, which people will forget and go away. So, I think that's what we, as leaders and as managers have to start thinking. How do you look at those emotions? Think more at the collective emotions level and use that to really build engagement and drive your transformation and all of that.

00:46:03
Harish: Okay. And do you see leaders, senior leaders offer a certain vintage, how easy or difficult is it for them to make this change? And like you said, most people were 45-50 plus when they started even things like what you're talking about in recognition, but similar. So now how do they adapt to this change that you have now dealing with people who need to put up these things probably on their Instagram stories that they got something. How do they deal with this change?

00:46:33
Krish: Yeah, that’s where we are to communicate. Again, it's not so much the age of people. Sometimes I think it's people who may be older, but they're also pretty used to some of these things. I wouldn't say age is as big a factor, but you're right. We've got to get people to understand this and therefore getting them to understand this, let's say the persona of a fresh engineer, less than three years, what are, what is he or she craving, for what really drives them or what kind of emotion is important for them to understand? And I think that's not just talking about it, all communicating a little bit of training, getting them to interact with people so that they also see what is happening or that will make them realise these things.

00:47:23
Harish: Yeah. I think it's at the heart of the whole diversity and inclusion concept as well. I mean, it's about just understanding what those different people are coming with, what is their background and what are their challenges? And we saw that at play in the last one and a half, two years, we had a lot of companies where the younger workforce realised that the senior managers just didn't have the same understanding because of different demographics, right. Somebody living in a family, with two kids struggling to do homework or dealing with preschool issues, whereas the senior manager said, why aren't you attending my calls because this person's children are in college or whatever.

00:48:14
Krish: Yeah. I think there's this thing about this empathy that was very, very important. I think people didn't realise women going through managing work and giving care at home etc. But I think what has happened is this has made them more aware. I think I would say generally because of lots of communication scenes, they have increased their empathy about what is happening. And I think I've seen that as one of the benefits, the greater sensitivity to diversity, sensitivity to those issues have increased over the last two years. And that actually resulted in the change in mindset quite much.

00:48:59
Harish: And I think, in a lot of cases, it may just be the lack of a witness, which is what has come to the fore in the last two years. And now that you are aware and you're not changing your mindset, it’s a different problem, but I think it's a good thing that has happened over the last couple of years. So, a couple of last few questions, Krish. The book, like we mentioned, is an excellent playbook for HR. Again, taking the start-up founder lens towards this. If somebody, like a start-up founder, wants to start applying lessons from this book to their company, where would you recommend they start? Because there's a lot to be done. How should they prioritise? Is there a Pareto’s law that I do this bit or rather power law that I’ll do this, and it’ll give me 80 percent of impact? Is there anything like that or how do you recommend they start?

00:50:00
Krish: Very interesting question. Maybe I should think about it like that. No, I think the first thing that I would say, have to do is really read chapter two, which is all about understanding what the jobs are to be done. I think it's important both at the company level and within the people area, what are the jobs to be done and something they will be thinking about. That's the first step. And once they've done that, I think they're going to say, I've given about ten foundational outcomes that people should be looking at. Look at what are those two or three there, which really make a difference. Is it all about attracting talent, building talent that is important to them? Or is it about building a culture or is it about training and building capability of people? Or is it about really ensuring the right cost structure? Because we are in an industry where I'm not competitive, how do I really look at ensuring my right cost structure or is it the focus on execution? So, I think you may not go through all, but you can just take one or two I want to really work on and then just work on that. So, it starts with your, what are the strategic jobs to be done for the company then look at, if that has to be done, what are the things I need to do in HR? And then what are my biggest challenges, et cetera. And then you can choose, which are the three or four things you really want to work on. You can start off, take one or two, work on it and slowly towards the last outcome, which I think would take some time.

00:51:41
Harish: And going back to what you mentioned earlier, right? So sometimes you just need to bide your time, wait for the right opportunity to strike.

00:51:50
Krish: Yeah. I think it's a balance because at the same time you have to deliver business. It's not enough. There are some things where you say, I want to really be good at one or two things you may say, I may not prioritise. That's fine. So, you make that choice, which is relevant for your business.

00:52:11
Harish: Yeah. So Krish, any recommendations of books or podcasts or people that we should follow or things that have shaped your thinking around people?

00:52:26
Krish: I think there are a lot of good books that one can read. I think one of the books that really made me start thinking a lot more about HR and business is Good To Great by Jim Collins. I think it's a good book. And I think even now the two elements that he writes about level 5 leaders, I think are still valid. So, I think Good To Great is a good start with. I think Clayton Christensen’s Disruptive Innovation is another one, which I think people can keep, because I think it really brings some great examples there. I think there are a lot of books on the newer research on people on social sciences, a lot of books on behavioural economics. How will you make change happen? Atomic Habits by James Clear, The Power Of Habit by Charles Duhigg. These are all based on neuroscience and habits, that’s something good to read. I think this thing about psychological safety (The Fearless Organization) by Amy Edmondson, which is talking about what it is and how you really build it. Carol Dweck and the growth mindset is all about, this concept of mindset really comes there. And Martin Seligman, if you really want to understand positive psychology, emotions, all that couple of them are good, but the latest one on optimism is good because it just tells you the way of thinking. So, I think these are the newer age thinking where there is a lot of behavioural economics, behavioural science, as well as some of the latest stuff on positive psychology. Of course, Daniel Kahneman’s book, Thinking, Fast and Slow. It's a big book. I've struggled to complete it, but if we can get a podcast where you read, it's a good one, because I think the ideas are phenomenal. I've used many of those ideas in the book and Kahneman is really a very good author to read. I think these are all the latest, I mean, we used to have this Dave Ulrich and all where I think they're more of the seventies and eighties now. I think things are moving with some of these latest stuff.

00:54:44
Harish: Yeah. And I think most of the books that you've mentioned Krish are also those from which you can quickly apply lessons. I think that's probably the difference between most of the other books that you mentioned and Thinking, Fast and Slow, which reads like a doctorate thesis.

00:55:01
Krish: There's another nice book I read called Emotional Success by David DeSteno and I've taken some ideas from that book, like the whole idea of pride. It’s really good. It has got research-backed things.

00:55:20
Harish: Yeah. So, let's come to the last section where we pose certain things, words, topics to you, and we want you to give your hot take on what would be the future relevance of that thing. So, think of it as a rapid fire, but there's no time pressure. You can give me a hot take on that. So, the first one. Both India and worldwide, these traditional centres of corporate hubs, like Bangalore and Silicon Valley. Do you see that changing? What was your take on that?

00:55:55
Krish: No, I think it will be more distributed. Traditionally, if you look at Unilever, they will have everybody in London. Now they've gone all across. So, I think those centres are getting more distributed now. The physical locations are losing a little bit of value, but there are some advantages of that hub, you know, Bangalore or Silicon Valley. But once the company has grown and set up, I think the leadership gets quite distributed. So, I think they may not continue to remain a hub of that significance anymore.

00:56:38
Harish: Second one is the traditional interview. Is that going with change with AI bots suggesting that these are the people who should be hired? What is going to change? How is it going to be relevant?

00:56:55
Krish: Well personally, I still believe in the traditional interview process. I still believe that with the right kind of a thing, most people would like to do that. The bots and others may do the work to shortlist and get you three or four people, but in the end, you have to really understand. And I think there are some things you can't do, especially at mid and senior level, without interviewing people. It may be much more at an operative level. Yes. Some of it need not be there and you can use a little more of tests and other stuff, but as you want to get into a higher leadership level, I think the interviews will continue.

00:57:35
Harish: Now, we come to the slightly left of field topics. So one is, in the current OTT world in India, what is the future relevance of Bollywood?

00:57:48
Krish: Bollywood will definitely be a content producer, right? I mean, Bollywood will be there. It will still be a content producer and OTT will learn from Bollywood. Again, similarly Hollywood because that's where the stars are, that's where the directors are, and they will all produce content. and now they have greater power with them. They can produce it for the OTT. They could produce it for the theatres. They can be independent, they can do many things, but Bollywood would still probably be a strong hub.

00:58:21
Harish: In spite of the pressures from regional content becoming better and more interesting.

00:58:27
Krish: Yeah, it may eat away some, but I still think the biggest market share and because things would still be volume, budgets, and this and that, it will still be big.

00:58:40
Harish: Alright and the final one. What do you think is the future relevance of one day international cricket?

00:58:46
Krish: Oh my God. I think it's a midway kind of a thing, right? See, the one-day internationals in day to day and all these tournaments are gone, but the significance in the World Cup is very strong. Still the one-day international world cup is like the gold standard of any tournament in cricket. I don't think they all look for that. I think that that's where it is, but all these inter country tournaments, they have lost the significance of one day in the test. And then maybe you're right. 20-20 are more popular, but one day is becoming more the ones where the ultimate world cup. So, I think it may continue at that rate for some time.

00:59:35
Harish: All right on that note, Krish, I think we moved from everything from your book to what has influenced you to cricket, to Bollywood, we've covered a lot. This is a fantastic session, Krish. A lot of learning for me. It’s a great book. Very interesting topics, very actionable playbook, as well. And I really look forward to the day when we can actually do this in person. Right now, we are one state away, but we can do this in person. Again, some emotional connect for me. I still take pride in the fact that I spent three years in Infosys.

01:00:15
Krish: You should come and visit our campus sometime, in Bangalore or when I come to Pune, we can catch up. Good to have an ex-Infosys back on the campus. But thank you. As I said, this book is frankly more about sharing what I know and also putting together information that I've collected from many of my CHRO friends and people I have worked with. So, it is not just my wisdom. The idea is that people can use it in some ways that it forces people to think differently, that really helps.

01:00:56
Harish: And I wish Krish that just like how you have taken that extra effort of sharing your knowledge, this book catalyses other leaders to actually do the same thing.

01:01:12
Krish: Thank you, Harish. Pleasure talking to you.

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