[CTQ Smartcast] How to prepare yourself for a job search in the post pandemic world? With Harshad Bhagwat
Harshad Bhagwat is Co-founder and CEO of WordsMaya and is on a mission to help 100,000 people find their dream job.
In this Smartcast, hosted by CTQ co-founder BV Harish Kumar, we have talked in detail about how young students should navigate their job search journeys and what needs to be done to improve one’s employability. We also spoke about networking and how to think about your social capital.
Prefer an audio version of the Smartcast? Listen below.
Follow CTQ Smartcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, or on your favourite podcast platform.
(Read the shownotes below or skip to the transcript)
SOME OF THE THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT
Harshad’s definition of a successful job search
What is a dream job?
How must individuals bridge the gap to reach the CXO level in an organisation?
Harshad’s journey to find his dream job
Job search: Pre pandemic v/s Post pandemic
The role of personal branding in securing one’s dream job
Why must an individual re-skill to stay future relevant?
The need to get comfortable with working with robots
How to deal with socio-cultural aspects when dealing with employment gaps
Why networking?
The role of alternate MBA schools in developing skills
PLUS
Future relevance of freelancing, engineering colleges and resumes.
AND
Connect with Harshad here and check out his Instagram page.
LINKS TO PEOPLE, NEWSLETTER AND ARTICLES MENTIONED IN THE SMARTCAST
PEOPLE
Dr Anand Despande, Founder and Chairman, Persistent Systems
Karthik Srinivasan, Communications Strategy Consultant
NEWSLETTER
ARTICLES
If you enjoyed this Smartcast, you will also like How To Build Social Capital - Brand 'You' Online, With Karthik Srinivasan
TRANSCRIPT OF THE EPISODE
00:00:00
Harish: Harshad Bhagwat is Co-founder and CEO of WordsMaya and is on a mission to help 100,000 people find their dream job. On CTQ Smartcasts we often talk about the jobs of the future and the workplace of the future. So we thought we'll pick Harshad’s brains about how people, especially young students, should think about navigating their job search journeys? What do you need to do to improve your employability and how not to think about technology impacting your job. Harshad spoke about networking, and how to think about building your social capital. So go on, and listen to this insightful conversation with a career change designer.
00:00:54
Harish: Welcome Harshad. Welcome to the CTQ Smartcast.
00:00:57
Harshad: Thanks, Harish, really looking forward to talking to you.
00:01:02
Harish: Yeah, so let's put the googly straightaway. Right. So what do you know about job searching that others don't?
00:01:09
Harshad: You make me feel like you know, I'm some sort of whistle-blower keeping something secret from others. And you're taking an interview.
00:01:23
Harish: This is on record, your testimony is on record.
00:01:27
Harshad: Yeah. So it's interesting, okay. Harish, actually, there is something which many people know. So it's not like something only I've invented, or I know. But somehow people don't use it. Okay, people don't use it normally, in their job search. See, if you ask 10 professionals around, the first thing, or the only thing many of them will do is go to naukri.com and many other job portals, I think that is the only thing they know, many times, or they do when they think about job search. But I started at the opposite side. I asked people, How did they get their best job, the job they really admire, or stayed in, or thought they contributed the most? And I found that most people told me that they got that job through their own network. Okay, and now you're nodding and probably you have also done similarly. And I've seen many times winners do similar stuff, they don't go for these typical portals. Many of the professionals got these jobs inbound. So kind of that company, or the department head, or maybe a team lead got that person in actually, you know, because of maybe prior connection, working together before, collegemate, whatever that choice is. So somehow I realised that this is the big gap, I guess, and that has been my story, also the like, I have done only one job, but that I could get through networking only. When you sort of know what you're applying for, you have some leverage there. Or, you know, what you want to get into, and you search like that. And there are many problems with job portals, which don't allow you to do this actually.
00:03:29
Harshad: Right. So, you know, one follow up question to that, is that when you ask people about what is their favourite job, or like, they say, the dream job, right? What do people say, you know, how do they define it, just for people to get a sense of what are the contours of this dream job that people should think about, which is, I'm sure very different from how it is defined on campuses, where the highest paying job are usually the jobs which companies are coming on day zero table are considered dream jobs, right. But that is not what a seasoned professional will say, so how should people define this idea, notion of dream job? A, first of all, is there a notion of a dream job? If yes, how do you define it?
0:04:17
Harshad: Yeah, yeah, there's always a debate, right. I think people who get that, they will be saying that, yes, there is a dream job. Okay, people who are yet to figure that out, are yet to get into one will always say no, there is no one. It's just a matter of your choice. I think when your idea of your jobs or your career, of course, evolves with age with experience, and that is given, I guess, I mean, I'm sure with you also, you may never have thought about you will be doing this today. Right. So it evolves maybe after three years, five years, 10 years. So keeping that aside. I think deep down all of us search for that something, okay? I mean, keeping the spiritual side aside, even in our careers, I think they're searching for something. That perfect one, let's say dream, probably is a word where we always are assigning it with dreamy, it might not be real, it's not like that. Or it might not be the highest paid, or most sought after, it may not always be like that, right? It is what is perfect for that individual choice, let's say, or with the constraints, the ambitions, with the passion, skills, choices, even location sometimes, or work life balance. Money, of course, is in the top five. So I think all these choices or all these constraints we have within that if we can get the best one, I think employers will also agree that these people stay longer. And also they are more productive, right? If they are really liking and I think if we do something we really are fitting in, we tend to like that as well. I mean, keep putting aside all the pros and cons maybe. So I believe that there is a perfect job for everyone. But it might evolve with time. It's not like for your whole career, you will get into one. I feel like people do not go enough inwards. I think we are constantly bombarded with external things. So many times our choices are what our friends are doing. Or what our family told us to do. That is the biggest problem in career choices, at least in the early stage. Right, we always follow someone or someone's advice. So I have seen many people saying after three years, they realise, oh, this is not what they want to do. Or I'm sure you know, many engineers after completing engineering, they thought okay, they would want to start a YouTube channel, right. So I think our choices are driven by external phenomena if somehow we know how to go inwards and think about what our choices are, which is not easy, which is definitely not easy. I think there is a better way of approaching our careers. Our choices, as I said, may change with time, but can it be a conscious choice? I think that is my point here. And if we want that job, then there are different ways of getting right. So just to complete, I ask my coaching students if you want a job or you want the job, if you want a job, I am not required. Okay, you will get one anyway.
00:07:53
Harish: Right. So there are two aspects to this. One is, like you said, looking inwards, that is understanding yourself knowing yourself. The second part is that you may not have got enough exposure to know whether you are cut out for this or whether what you want is actually what you would enjoy as well. So how should people bridge this gap? And I'm not talking about only students, you know, it is as relevant to mid-career folks as to senior career folks as well, right? I mean, people may want to take up CXO level positions, because they feel that after 45 or 50, they should be there. But probably that is not something that they will enjoy, or they're not playing to their strengths. So, how should people know and get exposure? And if they don't have that experience, how do they deal with that situation?
00:08:50
Harshad: Yes, I think all of us face this situation, right? Like we think about something. But when we get into that, or we reach that place, we realise, oh, it's not what we thought about right? So it is always a struggle. I think the single word for this is can we simulate that in some way? See, for example, an internship is a simulation for a student, simulation of any industry experience for a student. Many times in larger companies, people do one more extra project outside their department many times and companies allow that to happen. And then they change the department. Many times this happens. If that is also not possible for you. I think talking to people is one thing, which is networking is one thing most people don't do. They sort of think only, you know, they just get thinking inputs. I think talking to real people who are in that situation, who are in that role, who are in that sector, doing that kind of work, or whatever you're searching for. That kind of gives better mileage. And we call this as informational interviews, that more and more you talk to, and there is a structure to it actually, how can you get that information you want? So, as you said, the exposure that you don’t not have can be simulated in some way.
00:10:22
Harish: Right. And how did you zero down upon your goal/purpose for life where I think I read on LinkedIn that you have taken up the mission of helping 100,000 professionals become career champions. So how did you zero down on this? What was your journey like in order to find that this is what I really want to do? This is your dream job, is it?
00:10:51
Harshad: Yes, I do. I think the corporate job I did was really my dream job. And I left it when I realised, when I had to search for the next one, probably, like, I could get whatever or I could deliver whatever I could in that. My stint at WordsMaya was similar. That yes, I mean, we are doing something for students and professionals on the soft skills side. Now this, in particular, is helping professionals with the job search. You know, I think all of us realise this or experience this that the best opportunity always comes in disguise, right? I mean, you do not know, okay, this is what you are actually doing. The second wave in April-May (2021), I was facing a lot of trouble with my family health problems. And I was talking to my customers every day, I would call someone and that person would say, No, no, this is not the right time, I'm at the hospital, or my company has many patients. You know, it is not the right time. This is not the right time. So I realised around 15 April, that I think I have nothing to do literally for a month. I mean, many of us had this right? There was absolutely no business in the market. But we have to do something sitting at home. I just posted on LinkedIn that this is a real crisis. Many people are donating money. I know many people who did voluntary work outside. I couldn't do that because I had patients in my home, right? So I said, Okay, I'll donate my time. So I just posted that if you face any career trouble, I might not be helpful in your personal troubles. I'm here, okay. And I put a Calendly link at the bottom. So every day, for one or two hours, anyone can book my slot. And I will definitely be there. Actually, many people clicked that link. And I posted over two months, a couple of times, I could get again, networking, I could talk to many people, one on one who was completely unknown to me, they might be following me for some time on LinkedIn, but I did not know anything about them. Most of them were facing job-related, I mean, existing jobs, they know it will go away. No salary rise, no good job, or even business, they had to close down their business. So these were the top four. And they knew that next, you know, one year or two years is going to be difficult for them. And I had put that I just will be listening ear. And I, of course, gave a lot of input. And many of them continued, asking for one more call. It was all complimentary, pro bono stuff. Actually, two months later, I realised I mean, by the messages back, many of them got good jobs. Okay. And I mean, because of the inputs, I would say. So I said there is something here, which is obvious to me, but it's not obvious to others. So, that started, I guess the thing, but now in September, October, I said, Okay, this is the thing, I guess it's big enough. And I think COVID has impacted many jobs or disrupted many industries, and people are kind of searching around that kind of got baffled, confused, externally, or maybe internally as well. And they're searching for something, you know, for their things. So can I help them with better tools, strategies? That is the idea.
00:14:26
Harish: Right. So when we talk about the pandemic, like you mentioned, do you think the pandemic has been an inflection point with respect to job searching? And how have things changed for people searching for a job before and after the pandemic?
00:14:43
Harshad: Yes, definitely. See, for many people, they have understood that their roles might not be required anymore. Okay, because companies have also evolved or revamped or they got time to revamp their structure and their departments. Going forward, what are the customer requirements you know, many scaled-down and now scaling up but in a new way. So, some industries are going to go out, okay. Yesterday I was talking to someone who is in the lubrication industry, right? Actually EVs do not need that much lubrication, so the entire company knows. So the company is also doing other things, but that individual is so much technically driven in that field that that person knows, actually, five years later, the skills he will be absolutely not required. A poll on LinkedIn, where around 100 people responded. 70% of the respondents knew that in five years time they have to change their skills or career or department or role. So, that has been the biggest thing. But of course, it was happening before but I think it rapidly happened, I guess in this one and half years. Just from a pure hiring process perspective, this online hiring virtual interviews, all this is making HR managers work more, so the hiring process has sort of becoming lengthier. It's very difficult to judge a person online. So from a jobseeker's perspective, that person has to do really well to articulate words. The value is, that is the biggest, I guess, difference, I would say it was much easier to do it before. Networking still holds. About 70% of jobs are filled by referrals, networking, immediate contacts, previous contacts, and they don't even come to job portals. So that will remain the story. The power of personal branding will keep on increasing. LinkedIn, I really mean, I have made so much business because of LinkedIn in the last two, three years, actually. And I have connected so many people on the internet, right? I mean, just message or comment on my posts to a message to a phone call as well. That journey has been phenomenal on LinkedIn these days. So networking on LinkedIn, personal branding on LinkedIn will be the trend I guess because recruiters are anyway using LinkedIn now more than others, and they're posting on LinkedIn and they are checking or even there are tools for companies to judge who is engaging with the post. So a lot of these social media tools and analytics come into the picture. So, I think we talked about the inbound jobs a bit right. So, coming back to if you want the job, not just a job, I think you will have to be differentiated and personal branding, network, getting referred really puts you into another bucket I would say.
00:18:18
Harish: Right. And on that topic is there is merit in people thinking that oh, you know, personal branding is required, but I might have missed the bus so I can’t do anything or wherever they are they should just start today if not, you know in the next six months probably two years later it is going to be valuable for them. What is your take on it?
00:18:41
Harshad: See we don't want to be stars right? I mean movie stars or so. You know, we do not want a million followers. Personal brand is always there, probably the name has come in the social media world. See you and I connected after some time now, but I had an impression about you, you had an impression about me anyway. And I was reading your newsletters. You might be already connected like Vrushabh also was reading my LinkedIn posts. So, we always have that impression face to face by the content we write online, by behaviour, our previous interactions or simple body language in an office environment, you know many people you might not have talked to but you sort of know by body language is a leader or is a junior. You kind of have a lot of impressions about people around you. So anyway, a person has a personal brand. When you say I have to build my personal brand, you mean that you want to be conscious about it. Now you want to consciously create an impression of one time. I always say that it has to be a real impression. You should not and cannot fake that. But be conscious about putting that type of impression more, let's say, in a way. For example, let's say there is a side to it that I don't know anything about. But now tomorrow, you put that out. So I have one more impression about you. Of course, we are talking about professional brands here, there is one skill I don't know about, and you put that out. So I have added one more thing, the way you comment on others, anyway, it adds to your personal brand. But of course, the aesthetics part of it, let's say nowadays, or photos. Even many of us have to invest in a good webcam. I know many leaders who have invested in webcam and ring light, just to look better on video calls where I mean internal video calls. So why do we do that? Again, they want to look richer. So all of us have personal brands, it's not about missing the bus. See, finally you want one job, even if 1000 followers in your industry, people who know you, you are connecting with them constantly. This is not new people, the same people you have met in conferences, the same as your past colleagues, your college friends, your school friends, or even neighbours, sometimes they might not know about what you do professionally. On social media, you might be able to tell them what you do. Those people will give you enough mileage. Very few people need 1000s and 1000s of followers based on, of course, their profession. If they are marketers, they are selling something B2C, they might need this. For typical professionals, I think even if you keep other people up to date about you, that itself is a very big thing.
00:21:53
Harish: Right. Yeah, I think Karthik Srinivasan was on this show earlier. And he had this notion of thinking about this as a means of telling people outside of your immediate circle about what you do, what you stand for, the kind of things that that you want to be known for, right. So this is for those people. This provides this channel, it is like this, you know, you keep doing this regularly, building this whole online persona is something that, you know, people like the metaverse are trying to pick up now. It's almost similar, right?
00:22:34
Harshad: Yes, of course, you want to reach outside your network, of course, right. But the question was, like, am I being late? So I think if you are not there at all today, I think the first phase itself will be just making sure all your connects know about you, that it itself might fetch you the best job action, or if you are in a niche industry, only those 500 people know about you, that's fine, but globally, I mean those best people in that industry know, how about that right? Rather than everybody knows about you. They will not give you any mileage.
00:23:12
Harish: Correct. So, this is about articulating who I am, what I want to stand for, but given the context of industries changing, some things becoming irrelevant, I will also need to think of what next for myself right as an individual? So how is the role of reskilling to be seen in this context? And how should people go about this, that, you know, you talked about this person in the lubrication industry right. Now, this person knows that five years down the line, I need to be something else. How should they start thinking about reskilling first and B, how should they tell the world also, that they are on this journey of reskilling? Two parts.
00:24:02
Harshad: Yes, I think these words upskilling and reskilling have come from the employer perspective, actually, that you have 10,000 people how to bring them forward, right. From an individual's perspective, I believe that that learning has to be continuous anyway, okay. It's not only when you are getting outdated, I think all of us will get outdated in that. If we remain the same person doing the same job in writing, all of us know that, right? We could not be doing this exact same work for three years. Let's say that timeline has reduced a lot since maybe our fathers and grandfathers age. So when you know, I think there's a simple technique. Earlier we talked about competition. I'm competing with all my college friends. They say if I'm in a top B school, my main thing is that I should be getting in the top 1% of my B School. Later, I should be better than all my team members so that I get promoted. So we think about competition, right? Can you add one more element which is robot now in that, right AI algorithm? Robot, everything, I'll put that one, do you think you are competing and you are winning with a machine? In your role in your work? You know, that is one simple thing. If industry is getting outdated or has changed, I think there is enough knowledge now to realise that to know that, because it doesn't happen in one, I mean, pandemic is very rare. It doesn't happen so often. Reskilling definitely is a requirement. I think I'll come back to see that if that person so there are two options, right? He goes there deep, let's say in that industry, sorry, in that technical skill, or it goes wide. So a person has two choices, if the industry is getting outdated, totally find the same technical skills required in another industry, if possible? Or what are your transferable skills which can be used in another industry? If let's say for example, he is a project manager in one particular industry, and that is getting outdated or saturated or whatever. Can that person do project management equally well in another industry? Probably that is one choice, or the technical skill that person believes is best and can it be used for another industry? In general, our lookout sometimes is very narrow. And see, I believe that you are constantly learning, I believe it's not like reskilling always means you have to take a course. I think the LinkedIn feed, YouTube feed is teaching you constantly. And another one is what people are telling you. So your network feeds. So you get those signals, I think that it is time. And what could be a better choice, right? So I think these speeds will be enough for a person to get an initial idea about when is the time and what could be two-three possible opportunities. And then that person has to draw a line. Yes, then there will be a journey. Of course, in that context I believe that coaches are really required in the new world. I think that is not just in career, you will know that in this one or two years. I know so many people, let’s say health coaches in general, yoga teachers, and I mean, mental counsellors have been the real demand. So anywhere, you know, you need help, in drawing that line, and an external person telling you the better ways of doing things, I think all of us will need coaches or mentors, or if even if we are good self learners, I think sometimes we will need an external help so many of entrepreneurs, I mean, I have had always good mentors. So similarly, in any case, you need those people actually.
00:28:22
Harish: I think what I'm hearing is that usually people end up getting bogged down with their day to day work, right? You need that radar to be able to detect and catch those signals, and then make some sense out of it. Either you do it yourself, by taking that time out, paying attention to all the signals that are coming in. If not, you actually get someone higher, or have some kind of a relationship with someone who will actually do that. But it has to be done deliberately. Once you do that then the next steps can happen. But if you don't do this part itself, you're not even getting started here. You know, then it's just a matter of time before you become irrelevant. Yeah, that's a good way to sum it up. So next question on this, we spoke about this, competing with robots, competing with technology, bots, algorithms and all of that. This is another aspect of it. Now, you also need to start getting comfortable working with robots. Right. So how should people think about that?
00:29:32
Harshad: I think we already are. And it is just that I think the machines are getting more intelligent. Right? I think we are constantly working with machines that are getting more intelligent. It's going to be a very new challenge, I would say. Again, we talked about exposure, right? We have to learn by exposure, I would say. Just yesterday, I mean this is another context. I'm not good with pets, actually, because I never had any exposure to them. So yesterday I had my niece come and she's just two years old. She's so good with pets, actually. So we went to our neighbour's place, she directly hugged that dog and the dog also liked her and all that. Right. So I was amazed, actually. And I realised later that actually dogs read body language, not the language we speak. Okay, so we tend to speak. So I tend to speak, you know, like, to the normal. She knew how to approach that dog. And she's just two years old. Her body language was perfect. So the exposure, I would say, I think that I mean, the one line answer is your exposure working with robots.
00:30:53
Harish: Right. Yeah, I think it's always, like you said, whether it's with pets or something that you're scared of, or with robots, right? The more you get used to it, I think the better it will be for you to turn that situation to your advantage. If not, you're always going to be threatened by, you know, those programs. Just to move slightly to the question of job search. And I was talking to a friend, in a conversation that just came to mind, this person, a guy, he was talking about ageism, in everything, right, 40 plus guy, he said most of the jobs that I'm looking for, they say, no, 40+, you are too old. And one interesting thing that he pointed out was, there is no Indian company that has a program for men coming back to work, right? He says, a lot of companies have programs for women coming back to work, but nothing for men. So these are some of these socio-cultural things that are there? How do you even deal with them, right? I mean, if you're talking about yes, reskilling, I know that, okay, my job today, whatever I'm doing in lubrication, is not going to be around five years down the line, this is where I need to go. But that industry where I have some space is not going to let me in, because I'm already whatever, 40-45 or I've been working as some coach for the last 10 years. So how do you deal with situations like this?
00:32:42
Harshad: I think generally, we are told to follow the rules. I think in job search, we should not do that. That is the only game. Yeah. So as you said, the rules of the game, let's say, no, there should not be an employment gap. You should be this old or this young for that. Your past experience should be like this, you know, all these rules are set by someone. Okay, it's not like sacrosanct or it's not like physical rules that we cannot break, you know, they're not rules of physics. So we have to understand why they have said them, okay, we might not be able to change them. But see, let's go to the basics here. Suppose that person is in lubrication, or this person is old, is the one of the tags someone else has put. The way I put it or the way I tell my students is, again, turning inward and what is the value you have to offer? That is the thing, actually here, you know, can we call job seekers? It's a very bad word, I would say I am going to change it. Okay. I'm still new to it. So I'm still following the rules of the game, the language rules, at least. Job seeker and job giver. So we are always putting this as a cult. I mean, it's a class struggle like, can we break that? Right? So those are the rules coming from this class struggle? That I'm always begging, I'm always seeking, can I call them as value givers or value providers? And companies value consumers? Value beneficiaries? Can this be really a marketplace where, you know, it's a handshake between need and the supply and demand? Can we think ourselves as a single person company, and we already are because companies think like that actually, about us, right? That every quarter every year, you should be able to perform this much and that much right there. I mean, it's just a salary structure that makes you believe that you are getting a salary apart from it. Even though you don't deliver on that day, you still get that salary. So there's this structure wise, you sometimes think that you're getting salary anyway. But otherwise top leaders are anyway choosing and judging you constantly, right based on output. So why can't we define that problem? Of course, it is very difficult because it is based on the needs of the company. So coming back to your question of that particular person, that person could identify that this is the value I have to offer based on my skills, experience, certifications, previous knowledge, all those things, my personality, my contacts, even sometimes my background makes me different for this particular role. And then try to match it. Who would want this value? Again, can we call job search as opportunity search? Where could it be the opportunity to contribute, just sometimes making the language or the way you think or put words makes you think differently. So, I would say just don't think about these rules. If you know how to define this, probably job portals will not allow you because those keywords you might not have on your resume, or the HR will be too busy to not listen to your story. Because they have 300 resumes. There are other ways to get in actually, right, you just need some patient listener, who will instead of having six seconds given to you by HR, the person will have maybe three to five minutes to actually listen to your story. And actually, I make my students prepare elevator pitch. It is another thing only entrepreneurs know. Can we have elevator pitch for everyone actually, that whenever a person picks up a call, he puts that in the first 30 seconds, one minute. And then he gets maybe four more minutes to talk more, and then an half an hour interview later, right? So there are better ways of getting through these.
00:37:03
Harish: So this brings us back to networking, right? What we are essentially talking about is that instead of going through the regular route, which will have these gates for whatever reasons, right, they just want to make their job easy because of which they put these gates and in these criteria, and those gates don't work for you. So you will have to figure out some other way to circumvent all of that. And, you know, one way to do that is networking. So if networking is like a skill that you think of in terms of employability, A, how do you get better at networking? And B, like networking, what are other skills that you should add to improve your employment?
00:37:50
Harshad: Yeah, I guess yes, networking has become an essential skill. Generally, only sales people who generally do face to face or front end sales are generally good at it. Entrepreneurs learn that on the go. Many people think networking is only for extroverts. It's very difficult to network for introverts. Again, I believe these are all rules set by some people. Let's say you go to a party, you go to a friend's wedding? Don't you talk to other people? I guess that is a first step. If you don't, I think you should start with that setting. Right? Where you probably know people. But do you really talk to them? Maybe unknown or known? Do you know how to talk to people on the go or you just meet? I think that could be a good starting point. Next starting point could be, you know, talking to people in conferences, Harish. I was working as a scientist, and then, you know, we get that opportunity to present in conferences, or we go to workshops of these industries and all that. I never, I mean, or I had my business card at that time given by my company. And I used to use it, but not much, right. But now when I go to entrepreneurial events, many times I see more people outside the arena than inside that lecture hall. I know how many people do not miss breakfast and lunch and dinner, because that is the time when you can meet others. I know many people who just come for breakfast, lunch and dinner, they are not even bothered about what is going inside that conference hall. So this is a totally different mindset, I would say. So maybe an extreme mindset, but can we be in the middle? So how many times does a company send you somewhere and you come back with five more friends? How many times do you connect on LinkedIn immediately and send that first message? If you watch a YouTube video or let's say someone watches this podcast this month, can I expect a LinkedIn request from these people? Right? Not saying that I watched this Smartcast, I would like to connect with you. Such a simple thing, right is not for introvert or extrovert, nothing. They might not have anything to do with me today. But maybe in five years, they will think about me, probably I don't know. Or I will think about them. Okay, someone from this company contacted me, it might happen, might not happen again. These are, I would say, random things bouncing off each other, which many times results in opportunities, I would say. So yes, networking is definitely an essential employability skill. I guess the second skill, especially with job search, I will tell you is selling skills. You know, sales has a very negative connotation. They believe they know you're selling means you're selling crap, you're lying, you're cheating. You know, that is a concept. Sometimes we believe, sometimes we believe that why talk about myself? Let others find out. Why talk about my work to my own boss, for example. I think if you're really expecting a promotion or salary raise, I think you should know how to present your own work, right? I think that we all know otherwise, there is no chance you will get a one or you will get that 8% raise set by the company, but you will definitely not go in a nonlinear way. So these basic selling skills, I would say, just being able to understand how to communicate, I think soft skills people have been telling for many years now. There is a nice quote in this LinkedIn Learning Report. In the age of robots, soft skills will reign supreme. Actually, it's the title of the whole chapter on soft skills. So we talked about robots earlier, I think we have to be more human now. So the top three soft skills in that report are communication, leadership, and creative problem solving. I think these three things will continue to separate us from machines. I hope for a long time these skills are essential employability skills, apart from of course, technical skills, what you are really good at and what you are delivering to the organisation.
00:42:31
Harish: And how do you see the role of these spaces outside of the traditional education system? Like nowadays you have these alternate MBA schools, like the Stoa School is there. And then there are these places like The Product Folks, which is like a volunteer driven effort for people to get better at, you know, just becoming better product people, right? So this is where people are picking up skills, which they did not have in their traditional engineering colleges or wherever they've come from, and also sometimes are missing from their jobs, but to get to the jobs that they want to, they need to cover that skill gap in this space. So how do you see these, you know, these members of the ecosystem shaping up? And how should people look at these as resources?
00:43:28
Harshad: I think the first is a mindset issue. I think many of us will know this, but I believe most people think that after graduation, post graduation, education is over. Okay, but learning is not. I think we believe learning is that we have to sit on a computer and really concentrate, maybe we take notes, there's just one form of learning. We are learning constantly anyway. What does the media do anyway? Right? Media teaches something they want to teach, right? Anyway, reading them makes us believe something, which is true or not true, whatever. Anyway, we are learning constantly, by all senses. Right? There have been enough studies that we don't forget anything, it is just that we don't retrieve. So constantly we are picking up. All of us have to keep looking for these things to take us to the next step, I guess. So, as you said, traditional degrees have one role to play. Longer courses by Coursera or maybe colleges will have another role to play. I guess there are definitely some skills which need in-depth learning. See, let's say would you go to a doctor who will show you a Coursera certificate for you know, but not to the basic degree, you know, like, I mean, we might. Doctor means at least seven eight years of learning by doing, learning by reading, you tend to believe in that. So there will be some skills, some domains where you need to slog hard for a longer time. But for these lifelong learning things, what I call that these are smaller things as compared to your degree, let's say, these are, let's say, six months, one year max, learning journeys for you. I think these community-driven models will definitely work. Actually, in fact, I am making one for these career things. I'm calling it a Career Champions Club, I'm defining certain attributes, which career champions have. And what few of them we talked about, let's say, knowing oneself to you know, really know what the job they want. There are many others that have defined, and I'll be building a community of career champions, who might not be champions today. But that's the plan, right? That's why they are in the community to become one over time. And we all will go together with that. And it might not be just a three month journey. Maybe the first step is three months. But it's a lifelong journey, actually.
00:46:19
Harish: Right. Yeah. Great, that's great to hear. All the best for that. Coming to the end of this conversation, any books, podcasts, people that you would recommend for people to just improve this ability to capture signals of how things are changing with respect to the workplace of the future and how to think about their job search? Any recommendations?
00:46:51
Harshad: That’s a difficult one. I mean, recently, I posted a quote that ‘If you want to change your reality, change your online feed’. Okay, so we just have to change our online feed. Even I did that three months back. Okay. I went through all the YouTube channels I was subscribing to, I literally unsubscribed all of them. And I re-subscribe to new ones probably that way. Sometimes you just need that. I guess. I think all of us just need to change patterns many times and you might be knowing social media keeps showing you the same thing again and again. Right. So sometimes taking a totally different direction helps you. I think I will not be able to recommend one because I think the audience will be very wide, I guess, right? I would recommend types. The types I consume to maybe stay in the game. Definitely LinkedIn. Again, following the right people, maybe even searching for many people deliberately, who are CEOs of these companies? Who are, let's say influencers in that domain? So definitely following the right people, then there are many new email newsletters. I find them hard to search for on Google, email newsletters, many times I get recommended by someone I guess. It's not easy. Recently, I was recommended by a friend to Morning Brew, I guess that is one for industry news. But again, that is where the US focussed. So I might not be interested in that. So it really depends on that, I guess, to keep networking with people, I guess every three months. Can you really? I mean, actually, I heard Anand Deshpande saying in one of the events that he literally has, I mean, maybe before social media, probably because he's a veteran, he has cards with people's names on it. And he literally picks five cards, or maybe a few days and he calls that person. And that's it just keeps networking I guess, in all people, I guess. I think what are they up to? What's their industry doing? How is your company doing? I guess we believe Google knows everything. But I really believe meetings don't know these things, right? Really that insider information, I would call it, you know, doesn't really come on Google ever, I guess. So if we're talking about things to read in the future, I guess definitely, in every industry, there are people who are really thinking about the next 10 years, and they're talking about it. So following this online feed, and connecting with real people, I guess can be the strategies for you to at least maybe, you know, add one YouTube channel every day or follow one person every day to one connect every week. I think that could be a very good strategy because you know, if networking is not something you can do or learning is not something you can do when you need it correctly. You cannot say I want a job in the next month and now I'll start and now I will reskill myself, I think It's a continuous process. So I guess it's a habit.
00:50:14
Harish: Right. Yeah. Okay. On that note, we'll come to the end of this. But before you go, I will ask you for your hot takes on certain things. So I'll be asking you, I'll be giving you a term or word or something. And I want you to comment on the future relevance of that. Right? So how do you think it's going to change? Will it be more relevant or less relevant, and what is going to result in that? Right? So first one is what do you think is the future relevance of freelancing?
00:50:46
Harshad: Big, big one, right? As I said, all of us should think about one person company even if we are not, and many of us will be freelancers, gig workers, consultants, coaches, I guess, many of us will be like that, or at least we should be able to articulate that.
00:51:08
Harish: Okay, next one is what do you think is the future relevance of engineering colleges in India?
00:51:15
Harshad: They have to really, really change themselves. I mean, in pandemic Coursera sold so many courses to Indians, they went through colleges also, okay. So colleges indirectly promoted their future competitors. Actually, I know that L&T started a degree program in particular domains. So there will be massive changes. I know engineering colleges, I worked with them, they have to change really fast, maybe three years time, I guess. Colleges are going down, you know, many colleges are closing, only top ones will remain will be relevant. It's really tough.
00:52:01
Harish: Okay. And finally, what do you think is the future relevance of resumes?
00:52:04
Harshad: Anyway, I mean, a resume is such a simple device to communicate, I think it will remain like that. I think we would like to add to it. The resume is too short, too simple. To articulate or to communicate more already, we help students make a visuame. So that remotely, they can show something on their LinkedIn profile, or any online social media profile, that relevance will be the next resume. I guess your face, your video, and appearance has become even more important. But a resume in itself is such a simple and quick device that I think it will not go away from hiring. Because I know hiring managers do not want to see a long LinkedIn profile and a one minute video to quickly judge a person. It will remain like that. But we will need more devices along the hiring process.
00:53:00
Harish: All right, on that note, Harshad, I think this was fantastic. You know, these are the times where the so-called future of the workplace is not somewhere in the future, but we are actually starting to live that future. So it was good to pick your brains and talk about job searching. It's not just about, you know, building great companies, and building a great culture, sometimes you also need to start thinking about who these people are? And what is the process that they need to follow, to be joining these great companies. So this is a great conversation, I could pick up a lot of actionable things for myself, even though I'm not in the job market right now. But this was great. So I hope a lot of people who are listening to this conversation will empathise with people they're trying to hire, and also think for themselves on what needs to be done.
00:54:00
Harshad: Thanks for this actually, this is a perfect example of how a casual interaction can really result in thinking about many things. So your questions made me think deeper, probably about many things. So even questions you sent yesterday made me really wonder if I have the answer for it, so I think this is a perfect example. I'm sure both of us learned a lot in this one hour.
00:54:32
Harish: Thanks.
If you like this, you know you care about your and your team's future generations. You can find us and click on the subscribe button on Youtube, Spotify, Google Podcasts and Apple Podcasts. You can also find us on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. There are two ways to enter the Insider Group of Friends of CTQ, a Telegram Channel where you'll get daily tidbits that help you think about future relevance. And our weekly email newsletter called the Upleveler. Got some fabulous testimonials from our subscribers. We also share special discount codes for CTQ Compounds and exclusive invitations for events on both these channels. Visit choosetothinq.com, you owe it to yourself.