[CTQ Smartcast] Building an Organization with a Culture Handbook, With Paramdeep Singh Anand
Paramdeep Singh Anand is the CEO of FieldAssist where they provide Salesforce automation software for field sales teams.
In this Smartcast, hosted by CTQ co-founder BV Harish Kumar, we discuss in depth the culture book of FieldAssist and tips on interviewing and mentoring. This is an unmissable conversation for founders who are looking for practical advice on how to build their companies keeping the company culture at its core.
Prefer an audio version of the Smartcast? Listen below.
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(Read the shownotes below or skip to the transcript)
SOME OF THE THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT
Paramdeep’s take on how to build a company’s culture
The bus analogy
Why must an organisation invest in its culture book?
How do newcomers ramp up with respect to the culture book?
How does the surfacing of the culture and these behaviours happen on a daily basis?
Taking care of the company’s culture in the times of COVID
PLUS
Future relevance of Indian Kirana stores, the gig economy and content marketing
LINKS TO BOOKS MENTIONED IN THE SMARTCAST
Good to Great by Jim C. Collins
Wings of Fire by Dr APJ Abdul Kalam
The Almanack Of Naval Ravikant by Eric Jorgenson
Stillness Is the Key by Ryan Holiday
If you enjoyed this Smartcast, you will also like How To Be Future-Relevant In A Shape-Shifting World? With Abhijit Bhaduri
TRANSCRIPT OF THE EPISODE
00:00:00
Harish: Paramdeep Singh Anand is the CEO of FieldAssist. They provide Salesforce automation software for field sales teams. A common friend Rashmi Kapse recommended that we record a Smartcast with Param. She said Param is the kind of CEO everyone wants to be mentored by and she learns something new every time she meets him. This obviously piqued my interest. And then I read the FieldAssist culture book. It all tied in very nicely. So we decided to pick Param’s brains on how they created their culture book, how they live and propagate their company values. Param gave some handy tips on interviewing and mentoring, the analogy of the bus journey from good to great was a very concrete one that will remain etched in my mind forever. If you are a founder thinking about how to build your company, you cannot afford to miss this.
00:01:09
Harish: Welcome Param, welcome to CTQ Smartcast.
00:01:11
Paramdeep: Thank you, thank you Harish, glad to be here.
00:01:15
Harish: So you know, how we got introduced, it was Rashmi Kapse on LinkedIn who said, the one person that she wants to hear from is you because everytime she meets you, she learns something new, so we said we get you on this CTQ Smartcast. And in the spirit of that question, in the spirit of the comment that Rashmi posted, I think that the first question that we are going to post is going to be tricky and googly. So what do you know about building company culture that others don't, Param? Let's get started with that first.
00:01:47
Paramdeep: I can’t comment on others honestly, because I think I’m learning from a lot of people, so can't comment on that. But truly one thing that does stand out is that culture is like a tribe and it is generally not considered tying it up with the company goals, the tribe thing. If your goals are met or the fashion you want to meet your goals, the way you want to meet your goals. So for example we have an insignia we call it as a bus, boarding on a bus, going from good to great. Now the scenario is, if you are onboarding the bus and you have to reach the destination faster or first. The thing is if the journey is important, you can’t ignore the culture part. Having the joyful interesting journey and in fact the culture what I feel is that businesses now have a lot of importance to the idea but when you put your team above the idea that is where you may get plenty of ideas and you may not want to stick to the original ones, you may reiterate, correct, chart off your own course. So the famous analogy which I take in my company is we have on boarded the bus, we have destination, but if the people on the bus accordingly and they figure out that lets not go there, let's go somewhere beyond it, or somewhere on the way we figure it out it's better for all of us. So when you put people over the product, you know we have this concept, of three P’s, people, product and profit, so when we put people over the product so actually you flourish and you land up somewhere which you may not even imagine. So putting people over the idea and enjoying the journey is the essence of the culture and that brings out a lot of things which you may not have even thought of. The way we are here today was not pre-planned anyways. We started with something, with one product, we ended with something else. We started with a lot of industry verticals and we chose one vertical which we found that yes this is something which is going to be the flagship product and this area and then on the way there are so many things which were happening because one thing was consistent that we want to work with people. That's not something. We don't want to reach somewhere alone. So if the FieldAssist is able to create an impact on the life of the people on a personal front, that's what I feel is also one of the objectives achieved. Somebody who joined FieldAssist after two years-three years that person is quite changed, he or she feels the impact, what is created. And they are told by the family members, it's observed by the family members, observed by the peer group. I remember somebody came to my office 3-4 years back and he wanted to, it was an interview, I said - why do you want to join FieldAssist? That guy said there’s a batchmate of mine. He was not the guy he is today, what has happened to him, I am so curious to go through that journey, what FieldAssist has made out of him it was a very fantastic thing to hear. So I think this is what I feel to have the team above the idea and that's how I think we define our culture and enjoy the journey together but of course with the right set of values system. So when you talk about tribe, So drive is bound by or say governed by a certain set of values, those values which are core, which are like something non-negotiable. If you are among the people who share the common values system, I think it acts as a catalyst. Your success even at times you’re failing, is also a learning experience, So your success will be very very fulfilling and very enriching for the people. So there are different types of tribes. We don't judge like I cannot judge if it is good or bad, or on morality part you can do that but even now in the group of gangsters they also have a text ethics ethics and they also have tribe things.
00:06:34
Harish: That's great Param there are so many thing to unpack there, so you know when you talk about putting people above the idea, it also speaks a lot about the founders humility, the leadership's humility, because it is not like you have put the stake in the ground saying oh we have to do this at any cost now the entire team has to rally. I think just the fact that you are saying that ok the people will decide if the bus needs to go to destination A or beyond A, I think that itself shows why and how you're actually putting people above the idea, so that's great. Usually what happens is all this thing a lot of people say these things right because they sound cool aur the sound good, the proof is always in the pudding, and that is what you actually do. Action speaks much louder than words, you already give examples of how you directed somebody to a different role and how this person who was applying to your company actually said that I want to experience the same thing that my friend has had. So those great concrete examples so can you give us some other examples that you can think of which talk about how you have put people above the idea just how things have changed directions? If you can talk about that, that will be great!
00:08:10
Paramdeep: When I talk about people we're not talking about individuals here, that's one distinction I want to make. We are talking about when people about the idea aur people about the product it's basically people as a tribe, as a whole. That this is in the benefit of the tribe of what they want to do this is, what they want to achieve, there are a lot of blue collar jobs are there, you have to have good discipline in short, it depends which country you are in, and you have to enforce policies because you have to ensure that the whole tribe remains intact this way or that way because it's in the largest interest. On the other hand, as a company we don't have time sheets. From the last seven years we have never gotten into any attendance marking system. So there is no time in or time out. I remember when we were just 5 people it seemed ok. We can see each other. When we became 20 people then also the same thing happened but a lot of consultants and HR coaches I met when we were 50 people, they said at some stage or other you have to get into this mode. I said let's see how far we can go and now we are 150 plus and the same thing remains. Everybody is saying how it is possible. At times I used to get into a lot of, something that we were doing great, but at times this is all what we are building is a culture of trust that we trust you that you take your own accountability, you will not cheat us or you will not abuse the system. We have got instances where people have been abusing the system but sooner or later that person himself or herself actually moves out or for that person will be an odd man out among the others. This will automatically happen. It may take some time. It's like ayurveda, it takes time for the root problem to be figured out. But shortcuts or something if you have to enforce it has to be taken. It's like if you are in a bad situation in health and if you have to take allopathy, you have to take allopathy, if you have to go to a surgery, you have to go to a surgery but the intention is to prevent this for the next time. So you take a very introspective approach that's why hiring also is something very important. There have been superb people who have fantastic IQ or skills or whatever they are bringing to the table, but the only thing is that we feel that the two of us may not flourish because the aspirations of that person or the why factor of joining the company is very different and we respect that. Even at the cost of losing the business, the time to market, we have put the people above because we don't want anybody to set an example which we do not wish to follow, So that way again this thing comes people over the idea or people over the product so at the cost of losing the business, it has happened many times. A very senior leader wanted to quit and everybody in my team was in favour of retaining him at any cost because we will lose money or will lose the business. We have commitments to our customers also but I could see that the person was unhappy because he wanted to do something which was not aligning and he was not in the right mental state also. He said how soon can I be relieved and I said fine you can be relieved just now you are free because the more you stay in the system, the more you are going to be unhappy and you are going to make other people also unhappy. You have done such wonderful work so far but now the demands are different or your own personal aspirations are different. Let's not have any baggage or even ruin anything of what we have built just because you might not be liking it or you might not be becoming a bit not conducive to the culture. Let's plan it out today. And everybody in my leadership team was like why the hell did you do this? I said right now we might lose, but in the long term it is going to be effective. But that person I remember after even exiting has been a great help, a well wisher of FieldAssist, a brand ambassador of FieldAssist in so many terms. And that is all about enjoying the journey in the bus somewhere a bit late but maybe at many times you will reach a better destination than you would imagine.
00:13:28
Harish: I think the analogy of the bus journey is just fantastic. It is so concrete and tangible that you can picture the bus journey people getting in, getting off, everyone going together. It just gives me a Bombay to Goa kind of feeling.
00:13:46
Paramdeep: Let me add something more to it. The bus, our insignia which we have made, is a school bus. The idea of the school bus is fun learning, be curious, no judgements based on who ever the person is. So remember, when we were in the school bus we used to enjoy a lot, so many friends and just being there with them and it was like we used to feel so happy and complete in ourselves. So the idea is curiosity, being very very curious, being humble, being curious, being childlike, kind of a thing. So that is the whole idea of the bus. So we have been expanding our bus but another important pick from the book which I am quite inspired by is Jim Collins’ Good to Great, which says that the important piece is the right person with the right seat. If the person is right but the seat is not right, then things will not go the way you would have imagined. So basically at times in many positions, when people in our organisation automatically, logical thinking, people are growing, it means that they are becoming managers, but that's a new seat for them. People have failed miserably over there. Being an individual contributor they were like they were doing fantastic things, and this is one of the examples. There are many people who have grabbed the seats. When they see the seat is vacant, let me grab it because I feel I have it in me and they have grown like anything in our company. Because the seat is vacant I will go over there. So this concept of the right person was basically onboarded on the bus and then finding the right seat and till the time the seat is not there for the person and even though the person has been on boarded and will stand but we will create a new seat even if we have to. I mean how long can a person stand in a bus? The person will be given a seat and many times people create wrong seats also. Since the organisation is growing, many times people ask what is my success path? What is my growth path in the organisation? Where do you see me three years or four years down the line? And I say that I don't have an answer to that but where do you see yourself that's the more important question and it could be in a true spirit of entrepreneurial culture that you will create your own seat you know that you are the right person on the bus the bus is expanding, the seats are going to be there, the positions which were unheard of, now being created just because we are into scale, innovation, a lot of customers have been on boarded, customers make you do certain things, expand, makes you uncomfortable but you expand. So seats are made every now and then. The point is that how do you come up and match with the right seat. Many times it has happened that the person’s performance is not upto the mark. So basically we figured out that this could be the seat which is the issue, not the person. It’s not about the person, it's about the seat. Let's change the seat and many times people say that they want to stick to that seat and then we have to say it's not that you can't have the seat also and not the performance also. We understand that your performance is an issue but maybe because of the seat. And when we talk about the seat you deep dive it more, it's about the expectations and exactly is not about expectations also it's about expectations which mismatch. So that is the word. One of our freshers, who joined us from campus, said, people have so many expectations, my parents, my manager, my expectations of myself. Those expectations must be dropped. it should not be there at all. I said - that sounds very impossible, I think the right thing is expectations mismatch that is what creates a lot of issues. If you have an expectation that this much is delivered, this much will be delivered. But your manager says no I want this much and then there is a good discussion that, can I or can I not. The manager says no I am giving you a challenge to try it out. I think you could do it and the person buys it. I think he is trusting me, something must be there. So I trust him so now the expectations have been set. I will do something beyond what I have been doing till today. So that is expectation matching rather than sticking to myself and then the person says aap kar nahin rahe ho (you are not doing this) and then the other person says ki ho nahin raha hai (I am unable to do this). So that will create a not so conducive atmosphere. When I say expectation mismatch and the seat and the logic which I am talking about, I think if that gets corrected provided that we are not faltering the base level which is the value system. That's how the person was on board the bus. A person has grown but the seat is not available, that could be a challenge. Now the issue is, should we create the seat if it is not created. At times it also happens. Ultimately there are external factors also. If you are in a bus on a road, what is the road is very very bumpy or what if there could be heights that we have to reach we have to make some adjustments and the kind of capability you need better to invest and get it developed before such situation happens and that's where one of our core value comes ‘change’. When we talk about changing anybody when I ask in our CEO cultures session which we do regularly with every new joinee I ask them what is your understanding about change then everybody says that change is a constant in life, change is something you cannot escape, change is perennial, whoever is not changing will not survive. I say, think beyond it. There is a reactive change and then there is proactive change we are not talking about reactive change that's taken for granted. You are an intelligent person, you will figure it out because this change is affecting your goals. What I am talking about is proactive change. When you say proactive change then that requires courage, that requires grit. Normal change do not require courage because risk is not there, environment is changing you are changing you got to change with themselves, but if you could predict what's going to change and you could be totally wrong also because you may do certain things in anticipation of this is going to happen this way and then you take a good amount of risk also doesn't turn out to be a wise decision later on. That's ok. But the change that we emphasise is proactive change. Change before you have to. That's the quote, And during that what happens is, in the interest of the person and in the interest of the company both, in fact more towards the person, we do at times have to take a decision come to a mutual understanding that it's better to get off the bus at this stage of time talks about. Nobody talks about anybody who is coming into the company now even though I don't talk about much but earlier, I used to. In the interview I used to convey to the person that you are here in this company, you have an expiry date. So remember that you cannot be here without an expiry date. What I meant by the expiry date was that it’s not you have to get off the bus. The point is that the bus will grow bigger, new people are going to come, new roles are going to be created, if you are not going to reinvent yourself then that will be a challenge. Many times my senior leadership says don't talk about the expiry date thing in the interview. People are frightened saying it's my first day and this guy is saying you have an expiry date. I said don't interpret it in the wrong manner because you need to be constantly changing or reinventing yourself. It is not a forced change but we wish it to be a proactive change.
00:22:45
Harish: This is fantastic, Param. I think the more we are speaking, I am getting to know more about the company and the company's culture. But a big part of me knowing the company culture was also the culture handbook that you have on the website. So I wanted to talk to you about that. How did you come up with that and what was the process? Can you talk to me about that?
00:23:16
Paramdeep: Thank you for asking that. Culture book was conceived in 2017 and at that time we were maybe just 30 to 35 people or even lesser. That was kind of a proactive thing which I could figure out. When a lot of people were saying your culture is going something like this. Right now you have less people, you are candid. But once you grow it will be a challenge. You will not be able to change much. I got a bit scared. If you do not want to lose a sense of something which you have created, so generally you will write it down. So whether you talk about Vedas aur Granth Sahib or whatever you know it's documented. So you can refer back anytime you are lost. So if you want this to be scalable you have to get things documented so that you can refer back. I'll tell you, almost every time whenever I go to the culture book, I myself get a new understanding or dimension because your life stages are changing. For a fresher or somebody who is a seasoned entrepreneur, life will be at a different stage because of personal factors or whatever other factors. The understanding that you are going to get from there is going to be very different. So the culture book becomes a very good reference for anybody. So even if Param is not doing something in the context of the culture book that becomes good feedback and I want people to be very vigilant so that it does not get destroyed or this does not get it do not get delineated or we have to force right? So this culture book was something that a lot of people asked for. Can I take your culture book? I said you are most welcome. You can take the culture book but you cannot develop the culture. You can read and impress people. So they asked how to go about it? I think you have to discover it. The culture book is not the amalgamation of the best of the things in the world. But it was all about the discovery process of who we are? When we started with the discovery process, writing it took 8 to 10 months overall, because there were a lot of other things going on and it was a slow process but a very concrete one. Each word, each quote chosen and we have a very interesting way of communicating in the culture book for anybody who comes on board. So it's like a dialogue. A person who follows these culture values, we call it V2 (Valued Values). And somebody who is not able to follow or does not wish to follow, the comparison is what we have given is a versus. A person who will be following in this tribe that person will flourish like anything but somebody who will not be following that person will be using out, depleting the energy or some tension or some stress may not be able to grow. So just figure it out for yourself what kind of person you are and there is a dialogue being written for each cultural value that a person who will be following will think like this, will be saying this versus somebody who's not following this. The whole culture book was made in such a way that people will be able to understand, though people appreciate the designing aspect of it a lot. So when I get on a session with the culture book with the person even at times one value explanation with the pictorial and everything it takes more than 40 minutes for one value. It's quite deep. The whole process is not who we are and what defines us, what is the common value system which we have. This is fundamental, this is like the core, so we do not have to worry about whether we are growing and what is to be changed or if another company has got something interesting as culture. Let's copy it. So this was original and it's not something which other people are not doing, it's not about always being unique. I think uniqueness comes in your execution part and not just the idea part. I was inspired when I saw the HubSpot culture book. It was very very long. There were about 100+ slides, but then well explained. I really like that. Even Netflix has a culture code which is very impressive. So those things where I took inspiration from such things, if they exist, can be very very beneficial. It can bring efficiency, people can have their own self awareness that do I belong to this tribe or do I not belong to this tribe. And not everybody is going to fit on the bus. Some people may say that you're driving too fast, some people may say you're driving too slow. So the culture book was an interesting discovery exercise. It took about 8 to 10 months of time then again refining it. In fact I have not touched it since the last 3-4 years. I am not touching that in any way except the designing part of it. The core wording still remains the same today, very much what we are and I have never found a need to change it because it actually does not get changed, it can never change, it is timeless, it is ageless, it will propagate like that only. You may add certain things depending upon the context and sometimes I should change but the core value does not change. For example, let's talk about inclusivity as one cultural value. When you have just 10 to 15 people and everybody has an opinion you have time to take everybody into consideration. But imagine if you are a 200 person company you cannot take everybody's opinion. You will have representatives so they can give their contributions and at that time if it is a crisis situation or if it is some opportunity then what you do is that you just make sure that you are not losing it out on any important opinion or perspective. But as I said before democracy will not work, you have to have a combination of dictatorship and democracy. What we have learnt from our mentors is that democracy is something which is important in the decision-making part but when you have to execute it, it has to be dictatorship. You cannot execute things in a democratic manner and you cannot take decisions in a dictatorship manner. So decision making can happen in a democratic manner. It is a famous management concept by Dr Ichak Adizes. He is the world famous management guru and we could feel it out. Sometimes we were forcing ourselves in spite of becoming bigger and we were losing a lot of efficiency and we were forcing ourselves to follow this. But we have to understand that the how part of it can change but the why and what part of it remains constant, which may be beneficial overall otherwise you may take months to make a decision. In the name of inclusivity you can do blunders actually. Similarly in the name of empathy people get confused with sympathy and empathy. A very simple thing is that somebody is going through a bad phase in their personal life and is not able to perform in the company. That person will be talking about his issues and I am mentally disturbed and all. So when you talk about sympathy, someone may say let me do your job or let me take care of you at this point of time. But when you talk about empathy you understand the person's situation, you understand the situation of the company, and think, let’s have a win-win situation. I may not be able to eradicate your personal issues. This is your situation, you are the best person but at the same time it cannot be at the cost of the people because of you there could be many people suffering and at times there can be better solutions. We're trying to say people are above, it is not about one single person. So people are above everything. If because of one person if it is impacting a lot of people then we have to have an empathy that maybe you take a break or maybe you delegate this work or maybe somebody can get on and take care of it for the time being meanwhile you figure this out but if you are in a sympathetic manner you may pity him or you may think that he is not capable of doing this. But when you are empathetic, the same reciprocation has to come from that person also, that the company is thinking how do I get my things sorted. I also have to think and many times it becomes a good hybrid solution which comes up. That is the difference somebody has to understand between empathy and sympathy. Similar to what I said about the change and also about inclusivity. We have another core value automate. We have to be considerate that not everything has to be automated. There has to be a certain threshold. Otherwise automation may lead to much more inefficiency in terms of maintaining the automation. Or by just saying that automate is our philosophy so lets automate that may not be a practical solution. Automation we have to keep in the back of the mind definitely so that anything you are making is scalable. But when you are doing small experiments you don't have to think about scale, you have to think about effectiveness whether it is working out or not. But then you do keep in mind that you can't operate just like that. You don’t have to do donkey work and you have to go beyond that. Initially it's fine to do. You’re figuring out things but when you have figured it out, you have to scale it up. That's how the context has to be understood rather than blindly following it. That's a very scary thing about culture books, because people may think of it as writing on the wall. That's how you need to communicate, over communicate what does this mean, otherwise you can actually become superstitious because it's written over there so I have to follow it this way. But there are many dimensions to it. So the culture book is a reference and it's a guide. That's why I am also compiling a story bank. Lot of stories are there, a lot of incidents happened and right now the next version of the culture book is each cultural value with a lot of actual incidents and stories, where you can understand it better. Right now I can figure out there is a need for the next evolution because now you have so many people and so many different age groups. For example if you and I are the same age group, what a manager means would be quite similar to both of us, what it means will be similar to both of us but somebody who has just passed out could be very different but the word remains the same, context changes. So in that scenario once you are growing the culture you cannot stick to those limited set of writings what you have made because in your head or in my head for example many things are very sorted, but that idea of being sorted will not work if the people are not sorted or people or not able to understand or get it. So that's why the story bank is something which is under compilation that will be much easier for people to relate to. So when you talk about integrity. Many times you are being honest and all that stuff but integrity itself can have many dimensions which you need to figure out. Basically what we mean is even if you have committed something let say which to you was right at your heart that this is I am doing with full honest intent but it may get perceived that this is something that you have done is something breach of it then you do have to have a good judgement. What was the intention of it the first time was it like every time there are more incidents regarding this or was that done intentionally for some personal benefit or was it done intentionally for a larger benefit, then those things have to be checked and that has to be more well defined. It is endless so you need guardians of culture. Culture books alone cannot do anything. You need people who would understand the context of the book who will keep on debating. We don't want robots in the process, fitting in the culture book ok in not fitting in the culture book out. Many people come and they enhance your culture adding another dimension to it. They bring certain things they might be following the innovation they bring to the table and recreate it. Another thing is we don't expect everybody to be 100 of 100 in each core value. It's impossible. So these are the things and the culture book also you need to otherwise it will be incomplete you have to have judgement you have to have guardians of the culture but yes you have to have work culture book also
00:38:06
Harish: Param, if we continue we are going to have at least a 4 hour long discussion on these topics but I am going to forcibly cut my self short here. I want to go to the next section which I want to talk about. Now that you have created this culture book two things that immediately come to mind is how do you get your newcomers to the organisation? How do they ramp up in your culture? Basically the culture book is essentially how you think at FieldAssist that is what you are talking about so how does someone from outside quickly ramp up in understanding how I should behave and how I should take decisions when I am at FieldAssist?
00:38:51
Paramdeep: Most important thing I would say is that rather than somebody trying to adapt a culture book it is just that somebody has to be a bit more self aware, whether I am resonating with it also or not. Following a culture book should not become a stress for somebody, am I following or am I not following. The culture book is a kind of a reference. But it's like your body. There are lots of functions going on in the body. You are not bothered about it but if something happens or there is a pain somewhere, then you take care of it. So culture is something that you don't talk about day in day out or don't talk about we are this we are that or keep on giving the pills to the people in form of threads to read. But the point is that it just happens, but there are certain guidelines or you can say that somebody is debating then that person being self aware can come back to it on its own or we guide that person. In the interview process we have a discovery thing. It's not assessment alone that you are right or wrong it's about the discovery who the person was that whether that person is open to feedback, open to change is highly coachable or not those are the aspects for we give lot of value to and the kind of journey that person has taken itself will talk a lot about the kind of value system the person is following. It is not an exam to be passed. Many times during online interviews, when I ask about the core values immediately the person will mention ten values and we will figure out that he is prepared well or there is something in front of him. At one point my senior leader also pointed out are you reading it out from something he said yes it is right in front of me. I mean there is no harm in doing it. It is absolutely right if you are doing it but it's more of a self check. People find it very attractive but living it is one thing. You need a lot of guidance. So that's why when we are hiring it is given in front of you, see for yourself, first thing. Second thing we also take people through the behavioural exercise. We believe in anagram. A lot of people follow MBTI or they follow some other tool. On the psychometric front, a lot of things are followed. But this is not psychometry. This is a discovery tool for oneself. We use that as well. So once the person is on board I explain it to that person. So each person has a CEO round and we explain to that person. But I didn't explain it in the first week. I have a new interaction but culture around the culture book explanation comes after two to three months because once they have experienced it, you don't have to tell much and I congratulate people that you are here because you are already following it. It's not something to be mugged up and followed. This is something you are already following. Just to make you more aware, figure it out if even one or any other co-founder or any other leadership is not able to follow this you should challenge it. Is it in line with the cultural value or not? That is the awareness we want to increase so that people say that this is not the type of company I want or somebody will say this is the type of company I want. So the self clarity, more anagram thing which happens then once you are in more awareness whether it's being followed or not.
00:42:51
Harish: So the second question Param is that the whole surfacing of this culture is like the stories that you talked about. Now if I join your company and you tell me you should question me if I am following this or not I will say if Param is saying this for the sake of saying it? But if I see someone actually doing that or if I read about or hear about somebody having done this and that person is still in the company then I know that he is actually saying something and actually following up on that as well. So how does this surfacing of the culture and these behaviours happen on a daily basis both for newcomers as well as oldtimers?
00:43:42
Paramdeep: Thanks for asking that. I think there is a lot more to be done in terms of the visibility of this happening. Many times a lot of things happen but it's not visible to a lot of people. So we have an internal Slack channel. It's been running for the last two years and it is called ‘I Appreciate’ and there are other channels also which are about customer stories. We encourage people to put it over there. All those things will qualify any of the core values so whether it is about empathy, whether it is about integrity, whether it is about execution, innovate. For all those things we use the common communication platform where anybody can appreciate anybody for a particular incident or initiative somebody has taken. So those come under the bucket of core values or one of the core values that itself. A lot of people are not always about senior leaders who are doing this. They look out for peer level people. But senior leadership has to encourage this something being done. It's kind of an acknowledgement or recognition that somebody is portraying some value. So it is beyond Param. Whether Param is following it or not, not everybody may be able to interact and listen or understand but a lot of people around can definitely in the circles will be able to definitely figure it out. Otherwise when you talk about it and ask people about how it is then people talking about it by themselves or if they don't talk that means they are under some fear. So we also use tools for anonymous feedback. You are not identified but if you have any feedback or suggestion to give this is your platform. These questions will directly reach me. I do not know anybody's name. Anonymous feedback works and also transparency. If you are talking about transparency, I remember that last year during COVID, we were in a difficult situation and we actually opened up our balance sheet and showed that these are the numbers, we don't have money, the market is very much down. But our projections are very healthy. The trust our customers have, their emails and messages, we showcased that also to everybody. So the transparency that we brought into the system, I think that was one of the major reasons we got ‘Great Place To Work’ certification, because a lot of people mentioned these incidents. I think that is a kind of validation. It's not possible to talk to get everybody on, but that's the reason. When I found out about this ‘Great Place To Work’ it was very renowned for having a very gold standard and the idea was not to just get certified. The idea was it was a very good process even if we are not getting certified the results would be something we may get. But it exceeded our expectations and we got certified. The main aim was not the certification itself, it was the outcome. So we used to conduct a lot of ESAT surveys. We conducted one in 2019 and 2020. In 2021 we replaced it with the ‘Great Place To Work’ survey. The results are fantastic to see. We are lacking at many points; we are not superheroes. A lot of things we are not doing well. We have taken good action in the last 6 months working on that and it has resulted very well. And similarly one example could be last year we did a very healthy appraisal of people, though the appraisals were delayed. But in 2020 we did a good appraisal and it was more of an emotional decision rather than a financial decision because people have worked like anything in the organisation and our headcount doubled in the last one and half years. Our growth rate has been really good. We are blessed. So many industries that could not flourish and we have been flourishing and all the credit goes to the people. Ultimately it boils down the people. Nobody told them you are exhibiting this value or that value. Everybody was doing whatever they could and we were transparent enough and then we appreciated them in a way and definitely I didn't see how much is going to affect the bottom line. I said if you have to do what we have to do it. And that resulted in a much higher top line return. So these are the things I think people do see and observe and take note of.
00:48:49
Harish: Proof is in the pudding. Param, one question I had was are you remote first now? Did anything change post March 2020 and how did that play out with the whole culture? Was it easy/difficult to influence people's behaviour and convey what you want and think? How is that over the last year and half?
00:49:17
Paramdeep: I think the last one and half years has given a lot of points to talk about. So initially, in the first wave people were sitting at home, clicking pictures of the sky, hearing the voices of birds and practising some instrument at home and a lot of that stuff was happening. After 3-4 months of lockdown, the work which started happening, the productivity part, we saw that there is an increase in productivity because commute is not happening and slowly things started in a way that for people there is no distinction between work and office, burnouts are happening. Now people want to leave their home, a lot of them want to join the office because they want to meet people. I think it was the whole sino-pseudo curve. I could see that it's not a remote first and it is not fully office. I mean it depends. I encourage youngsters to be in the office and all the freshers, I encourage them to be in the office because the last two years they have not been to college campus also. They have missed out the big part which we are very fond of and are very proud of here the last final years of college. And coming over here I've been encouraging them to join the office. Now we have seen, as they join the office they will feel a big difference in their learning curve and the growth path. There are people who are seniors and they know that their output has increased because they have been through office culture. They come on and off. We are not forcing people to be there until and unless there is a project which requires war like room structure. Online if the processes are very set it's good. But once you are in a startup or higher aggressive growth path, communication lacks and hurts and I'll tell everybody too much of WhatsApp, too much of calendarization or Google Meet and extreme of everything is a poison. I could see people are not able to read emotions on WhatsApp. I encourage people to at least call so that you can hear the voices and understand the tone. WhatsApp you cannot or you have to use a lot of emoticons to convey I am just joking. So now I think offices have opened up. A lot of young energy is there who wishes to be in the office. They crave to be in the office and the parties, on-site. We have done 3 off-sites in the last 3-4 months. We take them to various places and people enjoy like anything, sharing stories, learning from each other. I think that kind of a bonding definitely people miss. But we also have the advantage of remote location productivity whatever it could be. We do staycations also. People go to Manali, they can work and also enjoy themselves. Those things are encouraged but we have a good learning curve like every company in the world. So I think extremes are not feasible. It depends on the context. People who are doing much more even before the pandemic struck. They've been remote for the last 10 years. They are a group of small people and they are in multiple locations. So things have been working out there also. I just explained what is working for us.
00:53:10
Harish: So Param, a couple of last questions, more of a personal question for you. What are other interests that you follow? We have learnt a lot about your thinking around company culture and how to run a company. Other interests that you follow reading, shows, hobbies, what interests you?
00:53:31
Paramdeep: Yes very much. I’ll say reading is something I am very much on to. Reading in a lot of forms - blogs, newsletters and books. In terms of hobbies I would say you are listening a lot to classical Gurmat Sangeet, playing with my kids, something that is top of my mind. The interest that has been developed in the last two years is in psychology. Psychology is something which has intrigued me a lot because it was the need of the hour or it was life. So those things I am quite intrigued about and have been exploring a lot. More than learning a subject, I think I am learning about myself, like what triggers me to say this or what triggers me to say that, why did I get angry or why did I get anxious, what is making me go gaga or what actually is the behaviour. So in the last one year I've been into a habit or hobby of journaling. Journaling is something which I have been very consistent about.
00:55:07
Harish: Any books, podcasts, people that you could recommend to founders who are looking at improving or getting better at building culture in a company? Any recommendation that you can give
00:55:22
Paramdeep: One book that influenced me is Good to Great by Jim Collins. Apart from that there are so many books, in fact many books I start reading but I drop them out. In fact in the last two years I have reduced reading. I have been a very selective reader unlike before when I read everything. So one book I recommend could be the Stillness Is The Key by Ryan Holiday. That is one book and I have been reading it very very slowly. Depending upon the stage of life the person is, let's say the fresher. I really like Wings of Fire by Dr Kalam. Very very humble and his autobiography. And apart from that I think there are so many books for recommendation. The Almanack of Naval Ravikant, went through it and it's pretty fantastic. He opens up a different dimension which is very interesting.
00:56:30
Harish: Great, Thanks a lot Param but before you go we are going to ask you for your hot take on certain things. So basically we want you to give your take on what is the future relevance of these things. So the first one I am going to ask you about is what do you think is the future relevance of the freelancer or gig economy?
00:57:00
Paramdeep: People who really want to have that kind of independence and freedom, it is a great way for them to realise their potential. World is going to benefit out of it a lot but again I will say that extreme of everything could be a poison. So again it's going to be a wave. It will settle down but it will be a benefit for the whole economy as well as for the person. I think it’s a positive shape.
00:57:29
Harish: What do you think is the future relevance of content marketing?
00:57:36
Paramdeep: Storytelling is something which has been there for ages but now it's coming much more in the limelight. So content marketing, I think it is a strategic narrative but it is going to be more human in nature more like conversations. It's going to be simple. There are going to be a lot of distractions about it because it is going to be huge. But the future relevance, again I think people would be able to steer through it. What is the need of their target audience? So content marketing will get much more targeted to a certain audience by age group for whatever, it will be much more targeted rather than very open ended or something. More targeted through storytelling, touching human emotions. So it is going to be not just about the brain part, it is going to be about the heart part also.
00:58:48
Harish: And the final one is going to be more in your area of work but what do you think is the future relevance of the typical Indian kirana stores?
00:58:56
Paramdeep: It can never go out of trend. In fact the relevance is massive. Billions of dollars are being pumped up into so many companies coming up setting up shops. We have seen what companies like JioMart and Udaan are doing. I think they were heroes before and they are going to be heroes and much more in the limelight and they will get their dues. They can't be taken for a ride and they are an important aspect of it and they will realise their importance. Companies are realising their importance and everyone wants to win their hearts by being very customer-centric. The consumer comes later but the kirana shops are the actual customers for the brands. So if they are not happy and you are not taking care of them and the competition is immense. So he is the king and we have to take care of the way his interests are aligned but again I am a fan of anything going to extremes, it's not going to work out. So they have survived and have survived the onslaught of a lot of the modern trade. When it came they said kirana shops are going to die. And when e-commerce came they said kirana shops are going to die but I think they can never be out of the picture, but definitely those people have improved a lot. Even if you see there were a lot of issues of hygiene in the kirana shops but now they are getting eradicated, the consumers’ awareness is high. Similarly, for retailers it’s high. So they are not going to go out of fashion but definitely if they are not upgrading themselves, the new generation of retailers are not going to step up into this unless they are sure that the technology is the way or they do not think themselves as we are the everything and every company bows down to us, that's not gonna be the scenario. They also have to be humble.
01:01:39
Harish: Yeah. On that note Param, it was a fantastic conversation. We definitely overshot the time that we originally planned for and this is because I actually cut down on my questions. So I am planning for part two of this conversation for sure. It is just a question of finding time on your calendar. Somehow we need to do that. But this was a fantastic conversation. Thanks a lot, Param. I think there were a lot of things we unpacked and a lot of insights on building culture, doing it the right way, great conversation.
01:02:19
Paramdeep: Thank you Harish. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
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