[CTQ Smartcast] Future Relevance in An Increasingly Digital Future, With Siddharth Deshmukh
Siddharth Deshmukh, also known as a ‘The Travelling Professor’, is a teacher, a marketer, an administrator, an entrepreneur, podcaster, all rolled into one. He teaches at institutions like FLAME University and MICA and runs a podcast called Smarter with Sid. His areas of interest are business transformation through digital, customer experience design, and digital futures.
In this Smartcast, hosted by CTQ co-founder BV Harish Kumar, we have discussed at length how individuals and organisations stay relevant and thrive in an increasingly digital future.
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(Read the shownotes below or skip to the transcript)
SOME OF THE THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT
What is a digital future?
Roles that can easily adapt to the digital future
The right mindset to adapt to changes
Advice on how people must think about the digital future
Why are adults resistant to curiosity?
How can one balance between the stability and uncertainty that changes bring?
Keep experimenting and develop skills to adapt to the digital future
Digital transformation for businesses
How are legacy companies and start-ups adapting to the digital future?
How should marketers think about working with non-human teammates?
How must leaders think about human capital in an increasingly digital future?
Ramifications of staying anachronistic
Sense of kinship in a virtual world
Role of organisation’s culture in transitioning to a digital future
Corporate learning in the digital future
How can senior leaders develop skills and build awareness with respect to the digital future?
PLUS
Future relevance of podcasting, universities and LinkedIn
AND
Future relevance of Bollywood
LINKS TO BOOKS, PEOPLE, PODCASTS, MOVIES AND CONCEPTS MENTIONED IN THE SMARTCAST
BOOKS
What Technology Wants by Kevin Kelly
Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl
Loonshots by Safi Bahcall
PEOPLE
Philip Kotler, The Father of Modern Marketing
Elon Musk, CEO, Tesla Motors
PODCASTS
MOVIES
OTHER CONCEPTS
If you enjoyed this Smartcast, you will also like How To Be Future-Relevant In A Shape-Shifting World? With Abhijit Bhaduri
TRANSCRIPT OF THE EPISODE
00:00:00
Harish Kumar: Siddharth Deshmukh wears multiple hats. He's a teacher, a marketer, an administrator, an entrepreneur, podcaster, all rolled into one. He is known as a travelling professor. And true to his word, he was in the UK when we recorded this episode sitting here in Pune. He teaches at institutions like FLAME University and MICA and runs a podcast called Smarter with Sid. His areas of interest are business transformation through digital, customer experience design, and digital futures. So we decided to pick his brains about how to stay relevant in an increasingly digital future. He spoke about the mindsets and changes required to thrive in a digital future, who should be happy and who should be worried about a digital future? The business opportunities in a digital future and how can senior leaders deal with new media literacy? Siddharth had some interesting insights on curiosity, homeostasis, and the future of work. There's a lot to unpack here. So go on and get smarter with Sid in this CTQ Smartcast.
00:01:22
Harish: Welcome, Siddharth. Welcome to the CTQ Smartcast.
00:01:25
Siddharth: Hi there, how are you doing?
00:01:27
Harish: Doing good, thanks Siddharth. So you being a professor and all that we're not going to, we won’t get started with an easy one, it's got to be as tough as it can get. So what do you know about digital futures that others don't?
00:01:43
Siddharth: Wow, that is straight into you know, it's like a bouncer first ball here. Okay. So, look, I actually think that what I know is that eventually digital has to be used by human beings. And what is really interesting is that it seems as if human beings are evolving in an unnatural way to adapt to digital. So like, for example, when you're swiping left and swiping right on Tinder, okay, that is intuitive behaviour. Where does this come from? And that is a very different perspective on a digital future. This actually means that human beings have the ability, genetically, maybe, or maybe biologically, let's say, before I step onto scientific toes, biologically to actually adapt to this technological change much quicker. And we are seeing this with younger and younger generations. So if I look at why this happens, there are two schools of thought. One school of thought is, what it is going to be, each generation is going to be there. It's programmed within us to be accepting of the technology. That's how we started with the axe and chisel and all of that. And now this is how we are doing. The second thing is more nefarious, which is like, actually, we are kind of co-opting technology. And this is the next stage of evolution. Okay, so there is a wonderful book. I forgot the author's name, it's called What Technology Wants as if technology is a sentient being of its own, and it's kind of co-opting humanity into becoming something else. So that's that adaptation thing. So those are the kind of ways in which if one starts looking at a digital future, you start seeing things from a completely new light. So that's when it makes sense for Gen Z to be so rapid into thumb texting, for example. It certainly makes a lot of sense. So I think that's maybe the angle that I come from, from a biological angle.
00:03:49
Harish: Oh, nice. Great, great. So, the thing with the digital future is that, you know, again, the standard thing about the future is just unevenly distributed, it's already there, and all of that is there. But there's a lot of this influence from popular culture, right? You see movies like Terminator, or back in the day, the 2001 Space Odyssey and all these things, there is this extreme that is portrayed. You also have this idea of singularity and all of that, which is sometimes scary. Elon Musk is talking about his own version of what some people call scare mongering, but things are moving at a gradual pace as well. Gradual in the sense that, you know, before you realise things are becoming more and more digital. So that's the space that we wanted to talk more about. And since at CTQ, we are always talking about future relevance. So how do you stay relevant in this future in the near term, right. So that is what I wanted to focus on in this conversation. So one question that came to mind was: The digital future is inevitable, right? The transition to the digital future seems to be inevitable right now. So what kind of roles and people in those roles should be very happy about a digital future? And who should be really scared?
00:05:11
Siddharth: Yeah, I think I get a lot of this from my students, they want to prepare for a digital future. And they're like, so what should we be doing? And how should we prepare? And to be honest, I think, if I look at what is core to being human, okay, is to maybe be creative, tell stories, see patterns and look at the narrative behind patterns, right? I think those are core skills for any human being, because you're human. That’s what differentiates you from the rest of animals. So I think that is something which, if you have an intuitive skill, or something that you're willing to learn, both are possible. I think that is what will make you happy. If you're very intuitively good at it. Or if you're happy to learn it, you should be happy with it. People keep talking about numbers, but I'm not sure. Because I think that if you're looking at artificial intelligence, then you're looking at the ability to crunch numbers. So any person who has the ability to create a story can look at numbers and look at the narrative behind numbers. Can artificial intelligence also create a story? Yes, that's also possible. So at one level, we should all be scared. But maybe the storytellers can be less scared than other people. So also another way of looking at it is what part of ourselves are we outsourcing to technology already. So we are outsourcing all of our memory. Right? We are outsourcing. So the fact is that if you're outsourcing all of that, then it means that. So then what remains behind. Right? So what remains to end. And if you do the whole Buddhist or Vedic neti neti, you will suddenly realise that what remains with you is the ability to consciously create, and consciously create to be innovative. And these are all cliched terms. But if you go into it from a different perspective, just you know, what can I outsource, rather than anything else. You soon realise that there's very few things that you can't outsource.
00:07:40
Harish: Right, right. Yeah. So I'll pose this question back to you. What are the things that you are currently outsourcing? And what do you think you will remain doing for the next whatever, 30-40 years?
00:07:53
Siddharth: I think over a period of time, I have shifted from being an entrepreneur to an academic associated with one institute to being the travelling professor and then being a content creator as well. So, what I realised is that intuitively, I have taken a journey wherein I have outsourced a lot of things which are in administration and in the management to be purely into creation and research. So when I look at what is happening, that is what I have outsourced. What I've outsourced, perhaps, is administration and management in a sense, as typically understood, what I have embraced is content creation, at all levels.
00:08:41
Harish: Right. So you were doing gig economy, much before the term became fashionable.
00:08:46
Siddharth: Yeah, I guess so. That's why you get burned. But yes.
00:08:53
Harish: Right. So again, at the heart of this is the fact that you were ready to embrace this change. It would have required some degree of change of mindset, that traditionally, this is how things have been, you've been associated as an academician with one institute. If you're teaching, you're not really running a business of your own, this is how things have been at least in India, right? But then you had to make a change. So was that easy? Was that difficult? Did it come naturally to you? Was that a leap of faith? Talk to me about that.
00:09:30
Siddharth: So I was always intuitively unhappy with the way in which the world is structured around business, which was around a 9-5 corporate gig, or being an entrepreneur and starting up and struggling and all of that, or being an academic and then being in your own ivory tower. You know, those were the worlds that I was seeing. And I was wondering how I could disrupt it? And it's a matter of timing. I'm saying that I always had it, I was always trying, so all my failed attempts are not visible for the world to see. Right. And that certainly works in my favour. So I wish I could say I'm so intelligent. But the fact is that I kept failing, but I kept struggling because I was not happy. So it was not about, coming from a place of, “Oh, I see this.” I know that there's something intrinsically wrong, it's like a pebble in your shoe that you're irritated with all the time. And for some of us, we can live with it. For most of us, actually, we can live with it, I will not live with it. So I had to take the pebble out and see what was happening. So that leap of faith has always happened for me from time to time. And that has helped me stay a little bit ahead of the curve, not too much, a little bit.
00:10:47
Harish: Right, right. So, what I'm hearing is also that you basically did a lot of experiments. A lot of them failed, you learned from them, to call that learning, and now you're able to reap the benefits of all those past experiments. Is that a fair summary of what you just said?
00:11:04
Siddharth: I think that what you said earlier is absolutely correct. Now, whether I'm successful right now is a matter of relativity. And what is going to happen in the future may also involve failure, right. It may also involve failure, which might be a little more public, not below the radar, over the radar, that's all. But the process remains the same: failing, trying, continuing trying to succeed, and again, and then you grow a little bit, but then again, there is a problem. So a fairly cyclical thing.
00:11:43
Harish: Right. So any, any recommendations for people from different backgrounds on how they should think about, A, changing their mindset, the kind of habits, routines that they can build, even the content they should consume, so that they can flourish in such a digital future?
00:12:02
Siddharth: I think the most important thing that I have realised myself is that, if I look at, I mean, I don't know if you remember TikTok. But if you look at TikTok, you will see that it's built like a Las Vegas casino, which means that you lose sense of time and space. And so therefore, you say, I spent about half an hour without realising it, right. Which essentially means that we are kind of in a boundaryless world wherein we are doing work and yet consuming content. So it's become kind of fluid. And we have no concept of ‘how do I actually deal with this fluidity’. So, which is I think, where we need to be a little wiser, and start identifying some personal boundaries. So it is a little like us realising Damn, why am I fat? Oh, I am fat. Because I've eaten McDonald's for the whole year, of course, I'm really fat. Of course, I'm going to have issues with my health and stuff with it. I'm not fat shaming anybody. But I'm just using that as an example. Now, the fact is that if I look at it, we are all consuming this information as junk without putting any personal boundaries. And because we're not really putting any personal boundaries to it, the first step would be to do that. And so how do I put these personal boundaries in place? I think it depends upon how you are as a person, if you have the ability to deconstruct space, do that, if you have the ability to deconstruct time do that. For example, if you say, “Okay, in this room, I am productive in this room, I'm going to be entertained by that space.” Or if you have the ability to say for the next half an hour, I do this for the next half an hour. Choose what works best for you, is what I would say but do have personal boundaries, understand that all information is not equally good. Because we seem to be hardwired to get information. So we are eating and we think it's amazing information. So yeah, so less junk food, please, less McDonald's.
00:14:13
Harish: So we actually have this idea of a curiosity diet, we take the notion of a thaali. And we say that you need everything you need your proteins, vegetables, you also need your dessert, right? You can’t leave that as if you know that's not something which I want to avoid completely. That's not sustainable in the long run. So you want everything but you need to be judicious about ensuring that all the items are there.
00:14:41
Siddharth: I love this idea of curiosity diet. I don't know who came up with it, but it's a great idea. But I don't think we are curious. I think we actually eat it as if it is automation. So a lot of times we are doing stuff without the curiosity element. We are doing stuff when we are eating the thaali, we are eating it mechanically, you know, the law of diminishing marginal utility perhaps comes and plays its part. But the fact is that I'm just saying, maybe do it with consciousness and maybe you don't need the thaali. Maybe you need something else.
00:15:20
Harish: Right, right. Yeah, I think let's unpack that a bit about curiosity that you just mentioned, why would you say that people are not that curious? I mean, are you saying that they're not curious now, or as adults, let's just unpack that a bit.
00:15:38
Siddharth: Okay. So I know this, that's a trope that the child is always curious. And as adults, we lose some of that, it’s true because that's why it becomes a cliche or a trope. But what I want to focus on is, let's ask ourselves, why are we resistant to curiosity, instead of saying, why should we not be more curious, let's ask ourselves, Is there a benefit? And there is a big benefit. The big benefit is that by not being curious, we are creating certainty. It may be a fake certainty, it may be an egoic certainty, it might be actual certainty of physical life. But we love certainty. And that is how our institutions function. I know, I'm certain that there is going to be a bank tomorrow, right? Which is certainty. So if you know, I'm curious whether the bank exists tomorrow, then I'm jacked. So the fact is that, I think that is the inherent thing. So therefore, we are inherently making everything as certain as possible in our lives, and that, but we don't do it consciously. We do it unconsciously, because everything is programmed. So if we are able to then identify things that you need not be certain about, I think that probably will help. That's the first step.
00:17:03
Harish: Okay. So this is a very interesting line of thought. So, now imagine this other parallel that we have which is the world around us, like you said, where things are changing, right? Whether you want it or whether you like it or not, the world around us is highly uncertain. So then how should people balance the two, is there something that they can do to sort of make peace with both the things, because, like you said, it is natural for you to keep things stable. Homeostasis is how we live, right, we want things to be stable, but something is changing. So how do you then make peace with it?
00:17:50
Siddharth: I think you don't. I don't think we are supposed to be in a state of peace. I think we're supposed to be in a state of being mildly agitated about things. I don’t think happiness and peace are very long lasting constructs. So therefore, one of the best things that we can hope for is to actually look at a state of feeling meaning, or feeling purpose, even though I'm suffering. So I think if that tends to be there, then you will be able to accept certainty and accept uncertainty with a little bit of equanimity, if I may say so. The fact is that how do I deal with it, how do I make peace with that if you don't. You struggle through it. And then that's how it's supposed to be.
00:18:44
Harish: Yeah. It reminds me of a Viktor Frankl book, you know, if, since you're in the UK right now. The lights at Wimbledon, you have to treat both like the imposters.
00:19:02
Siddharth: Yeah, absolutely.
00:19:04
Harish: Right. Yeah. So then just going forward, we are talking about a digital future. Right. Another thing that I see, you know, as a response to these lines of thought about digital futures and all is people feel that, oh, we've been in the knowledge economy for some time, right. So, people think and assume that they are native to this digital future that we are talking about, is that true? A. B, is there, you know, further distance that this whole digital future is going to go with these people may not be that comfortable or may feel as natives in that future. Now, what is your take on that?
00:19:49
Siddharth: I'll give two examples. One is as a professor, a lot of professors actually struggled through the pandemic because they thought that they were in the knowledge economy, but they realise that they have to move from being a theatre artist to a film artist, which involves a completely different set of communication skills and abilities to actually deliver whatever content they're trying to deliver as a lecture. So I don't think that it is going to spare the so-called knowledge workers, right, all of us are going to have this avalanche of changes from a technological perspective, and that will only increase. So that's the first example that I'd like to give in the deconstruction of the knowledge economy, right. The second is, just imagine that you do a podcast, I do a podcast and we think, wow, that podcast is amazing. And then sure you have a Clubhouse, and sure you have this, and that's also good. But if virtual reality confronts us day after tomorrow, and everyone gets into Oculus Rift, and imagine that we have to have the same conversation that we're having, but by wearing and meeting each others’ avatars, what is that conversation going to be like? So I would say we are not prepared for it? We don't know. And so therefore, even if you are in the so-called cutting edge of things, okay, you are my friend, you're as jacked as the rest of us, right? Because all the world is going to go, right.
00:21:19
Harish: So be humble, be prepared and keep experimenting.
00:21:24
Siddharth: Absolutely, I suppose. So I don’t know about being humble. And sometimes, you know, you see so many humble brands on LinkedIn that have given up on humility. “I’m humbled to do this...to do that.” You are not humbled, you are proud so say it.
00:21:45
Harish: We spoke to somebody who's written a book about learning. And he was talking about intellectual humility. And he said, Yeah, I think I realised that's a much better term to use. Right, so you've also done a lot of work in digital transformation. So what do you think? Are the business opportunities waiting to be exploited, as more and more businesses sort of undergo the digital transformation?
00:22:21
Siddharth: Yeah, no, I think that there are two kinds of changes, the disruptive changes and incremental changes. I think any legacy companies are looking at incremental changes, because they can't handle disruptive changes. And I think that so let's talk about legacy companies first, right? I think what probably is extremely important is to figure it out. The first let's look at areas first is obviously virtual reality and augmented reality is certainly an area or sector. The second or two sectors are the second could be if you see the changes in the way in which we are consuming sports as entertainment, e-gaming becomes huge. Okay. The third is certainly in the whole area of pharmaceuticals and medicine and that part. Obviously, people have kept talking about blockchain and all of that. So I'm not even getting there. So these are the usual sort of answers that you will get when you're asked a question like this, I think what becomes extremely important for us to understand is that an organisation is also an illusion, right? So if I look at an organisation, any kind of organisation, it's an illusion far, at best, it is an artefact. Okay, it is what I would call from a biological perspective an extended phenotype. Like phenotype, a nest is an extension for a phenotype of a bird, right? So because a bird knows human beings know how to create institutions and organisations. So if you see the world around you, it is just your biology in action, you're seeing your own stuff as an extended phenotype. So now, you have to ask yourself, if we are hurtling in the future, will a nest be sufficient or what is actually going to be required? For example, if there is no tree then there is no nest. So I think the need of the hour is for us to move beyond survival and growth. Because those are the metrics that lead to one of adaptation. So when I say adaptation, it means that I have to be completely different, have different metrics, okay, identify different purposes, understand how to return value to shareholders and all of that completely differently from the way in which I'm doing right now. Right now, I am saying my X has become 10X, that is why I invest in me. That I have survived, and I'm succeeding. And these are my growth metrics, I think both themselves are going to be questioned. So if we start questioning those themselves, and you are seeing early signs of it, like thrift stores, for example, thrift stores or marketplaces where different things happen, or the concept of D growth, or environmental concerns, whatever it is, those are different metrics. And imagine an extended phenotype and organisation built on these different matrices, then you have the ability to actually look at a different future. So whenever I'm going into an organisation, I would actually say, how are you going to adapt? Rather than how can you survive and succeed? Right? How are you going to adapt? That is the need of the hour.
00:25:49
Harish: So is there something that you see in organisations, is there something in their kernel in terms of what makes it easier for some organisations to adapt better to changes?
00:26:01
Siddharth: I think there are very few organisations that have actually adapted to different situations. And there's a very good reason why. I mean, one is that when you're in startup mode, you're driven by your business model. But when you go into scale up mode, or even when you're trying to turn things around, or just do a little realignment, then you're trying to make changes to the operational model as well, rather than only the business model. So if I look at the business model, the business model is driven in the startup area, or even the scaling area is driven by the founders' vision. So that is what is happening. So then the whole organisation is created around this sort of direction or vision. But as things progress, I think people find it damn difficult to move from one mindset to the other and to the other. So even in the digital, non-digital future, people find it difficult to change the rules of the game when the game is being played.
00:27:10
Harish: Is it also a question of scale? The number of people, then as you're growing, you want to then organise them according to departments. And like you said, you have these internal metrics. Now, suddenly, you're saying, Oh, no, you're not playing cricket anymore, you're actually playing football. So you're going to measure differently.
00:27:30
Siddharth: Yeah, I think certainly, one of the big factors that makes a difference from a startup that is trying scale is the scale thing. And it actually connects back to biology and maybe Dunbar's number. So look at 150. And you know, the impact that I can have on meaningful relationships etc. So let's not belabour that. What also actually becomes possible is if you look at Harley Davidson, then really scale got wiped out in India. Why? Right. So it's not necessarily only scale that is creating the problem, it is the fact that, you know, this scenario completely changed, wherein the value system of their target audience because the target audience was evolving, or being replaced by a new set of people who were having a different value system. This completely threw Harley Davidson out of the water. And so therefore, it can very well be just an evolving target group, or it can very well be something else. We don't know, is what I'm saying. We tend to be very linear in our thinking. But it's not necessarily a linear thing.
00:28:38
Harish: Right, right. Yeah. Sorry, for interrupting you had started you were going to make it two parts. First was legacy companies. What about the next one?
00:28:47
Siddharth: When you're looking at, let's say, startups. Startups, I think the case for building a startup, which is sort of in the red ocean, or a meto is rapidly decreasing, because of the way in which you see, the way in which you see consolidation is happening and stuff like that. I think it is very difficult for a startup to say, “Yes, I am another digital agency,” for example. And my differentiation is I've got this framework, okay. So that I think is a loser model to start with. Don't do that unless and until you just want a lifestyle business. If you're trying to create a business, which is inherently adaptable and scalable, then you have to be very disruptive, at least for the next five to 10 years, then there will be a period of stability when something else happens. But right now, I don't think we are going to look at yet another education startup or yet another digital agency, you know, because we have a lot of them already. We have a lot of them and so I think the time is ripe for some massive disruptions to happen.
00:29:54
Harish: Any examples that come to mind? You wish this was the disruption that was happening in a space.
00:30:00
Siddharth: Okay, so let's look at the content creation space, for example. Yeah, right now there is a business model involved for the top most podcasters, top most to YouTube creators, etc. Everybody else makes miniscule money and is not really in it for making money or whatever. Now there are some of them who literally are at the bottom of the pile, and there are some of them who are middle row, but there is no business model around the middle road, there's nothing so I wish I can say something. So now that means that, okay, clients and agencies have to actually look at content creators who are in the middle of the row differently, which means that they have to look at micro influencers differently from actual influences. So that requires a different kind of thing. So there are disruption possibilities there, for example.
00:30:54
Harish: Right. Yeah, yeah. And I can vouch for that, because we have actually been, you know, trying to look for these middle road podcasters to actually go and give some money to them. So, we're actually struggling to find that.
00:31:10
Siddharth: So yeah, it is a process.
00:31:12
Harish: Yes, that is there. Anything else that comes to mind outside of this you also from your educational background, anything there?
00:31:22
Siddharth: I think if you see in education, if you take the space of the need, I think it has shifted from or is there currently, the need is either to get a degree, or to get a certification and continuous certifications and all that. And there are a lot of good players in that space like UpGrad, Simplilearn etc. But we are forgetting that there is an emerging market, which is based upon the need to actually survive, succeed and adapt in my day to day job without certifications or not, I actually have to learn in order to be acknowledged. I think clients, even big companies like Google and Facebook and whatever, are beginning to pay less attention to degrees and certifications, and on the fact that, you know, something like can you bring a different perspective. So there is a need for continuous learning without the certifications and degrees involved. It's never going to be in the short term, as big as the other two markets, but it's an emerging market. And that is going to increase as learning over the lifecycle of a career becomes a thing. And so therefore, I think that that is a great opportunity for a disruptor in the education space.
00:32:41
Harish: Right. Yeah. And you mentioned about content creation, if you just look at another kind of content creation, right, say, you look at all these AI based tools. Now you have AI based also practically, you know, all creating all kinds of content, you can create Google ads, blog posts, the benefit statements. So now some of these apps have actually become legit team members of the marketing team, right. So how should marketers think about working with non-human teammates? How should they be making sure that they're actually flourishing as a whole, and getting the best out of these non-human agents or whatever you want to call them?
00:33:31
Siddharth: I think I would look at it with caution. Two ways, okay. So if I have to be a conspiracy theorist, what I would say is dammit, after 100 years, these things are going to become sentient, not just intelligent. And so therefore, please bear with them politely and quietly, your series will whack your face otherwise. So that is one. But conspiracy theories aside, I think that the automation thing that I spoke of becomes incredibly evident in an area which is rife with templatization of creatives. So I would approach the whole thing with caution. Because if everyone is preparing the same kind of template, you're not going to end up actually selling anything. If everyone wears a pair of jeans, nobody's a rebel. You know what I'm saying? The fact is if I was in somebody's place, I would use my very human, very fragile, very flawed mind to create something first and then see what the automated thing is giving me and then the objective to see what works better. Because as a human being, I know how to connect with another human being, I should not lose that out. It's the fear that I have today when I go and see Google Maps, right? And so therefore, I'm not paying attention to the streets and have lost all the cues that come from a street. So I'm losing a little bit of my humanity. Whenever I'm checking Google Maps, I'm a little afraid of that. I'm not sure whether that's the right thing to be doing or the wrong thing to be doing. It is fantastic. It is amazing. It allows us to, you know, do crazy things, but not at the cost of my humanity.
00:35:25
Harish: Right, yeah. So, you know what I'm hearing here is, A, again, going back to your line about what should be outsourced and what should not be. So get things done. Don't be scared about it. But also retain your own value in the whole.
00:35:48
Siddharth: Try out first a little. Don't be lazy, don't have inertia. Don't be on automatic turn, try something first, and then see what works.
00:35:58
Harish: Right. Yeah, yeah. And again, we spoke about marketers, if we just extend this to organisations and business leaders, right? In an increasingly digital future, how should leaders be thinking about their human capital? I mean, we spoke about marketing, but again, there are spaces where entire divisions can now be replaced by bots, or robots, algorithms. So how should they be thinking? And how do all these you know things like, we call this, we have come up with this term called empowered employees, right? You know, people who are a lot more vocal about what they want. Now they are aware of what is there? The whole freelancer economy, generalist versus specialist, distributed work? All these things are also now important factors. How should leaders be thinking about their human capital?
00:36:55
Siddharth: I think the film industry has given us an amazing model for leaders to think about human capital, because what is happening is that actors come, there's a director, there's a producer, the scriptwriter and all of this. So there's a sequence of parallel activities. Everything is planned. It's a project. It's an experiment, actually, whenever you're creating, it's an experiment that might not work. But there is a business model attached to it, all of that, and it works. The thing is disbanded, the team goes off. And then some other factors come in, there are things I see more of that future happening, for leaders to contend with. Now, does that mean that the old thing is completely gone, that those 20 year periods that you were spending in one organisation completely gone? No. So you have to deal with it like a mix and match or hybrid sort of situation. What is important is for a company man, I would say someone who's been in an organisation for a long period of time, to recognize how the world is changing around them. What tends to happen is otherwise we go into our own bubbles, all the time. The gig economy thinks everything is a gig, the guy in the corporate thing thinks that everything has to run according to a very linear process. And if you're able to actually understand, okay, you know, because I'm the guy who's building the power to change an organisation, so that becomes extremely important. I think we are all stuck to relics of the past, right? Because of the whole certainty thing that I was talking about. The more we question it, the more conscious we become, the more aware we become of it, the better it is for us.
00:38:38
Harish: Right. That's interesting to hear you speak about the Hollywood film crew thing. Hollywood also had these studios back in the 1900s where people would be employed by the studios but then they would come together to form a crew for a film. That’s an interesting notion to bring here again.
00:39:01
Siddharth: Yeah, absolutely. There was a hybrid nature there as well.
00:39:09
Harish: Right, and this was before 1950. Right? So you're actually going back.
00:39:14
Siddharth: Exactly, it's a good model to experiment.
00:39:16
Harish: Right. Yeah. So another interesting thing to think about, is that especially in a country like India, I mean, you have these startups and legacy companies now trying to digitise and transform and all of that, there are some parts of their ecosystem or supply chain which are still in the older world. In fact, some of the regulatory bodies and government still remain in the older time, are most anachronistic, right. So, and sometimes they're even, like struggling to even want to change. So how do you see this playing out in a country like India and what are the ramifications of it?
00:40:00
Siddharth: Very messily. We are not like China, you know, they decided no to use internet-based e-commerce, consumer ecommerce. And they said, We don't give a shit about what happens to our market share, everything goes down, because we've seen that these are the things that we want to go ahead with as a society. So it works there because China has the ability, because their government, business and everything, for whatever reason is aligned. But in a democracy, it doesn't work that way. In a democracy, we stumble towards a solution rather than work like a coordinated effort. So, what democracy, it may be, whether it is India, or the UK, or the US or a lot of parts of the world, you are going to stumble towards a solution. And the thing that I keep thinking about, especially when I think of governments and all of that is technology's always one step ahead, then the government tends to catch up. But there's a reason for the reason is that each government is bound by constitutions. Constitutions are written in a different era. So actually, those constitutions themselves are losing relevance over a period of time. Now, what I'm saying might be extremely offensive to people because they believe in the country's constitution etc. But I believe that the Constitution is a set of rules created for a certain scenario. And if that certain scenario was created, at a certain point in time, we have to revisit and have version 1.1, version 1.2 of the Constitution. Now, of course, that is rife with danger, because it can be colored by a certain perspective, or it can be as liberal or conservative, or whatever it may be, right. So there is no requirement. So organisations are better than governments, because organisations at least change their operational models, they change their organisation structure. And there is knowledge about say, let's say Dunbar's number, or whatever, and people say, okay, 150 is done, let's do something else, let's have a different future. Governments don't do that. We have the same style of government. Can we expect it to run in today's day and age? So I believe that it is going to be extremely difficult for governments across the world, China being maybe an exception, to catch up with tech, because I have an intuition, not proven, that tech is driven by something which is genetic or biological. And so it is always going to find expression very quickly. And if you just see across time, right, you know, fire, or axe or whatever, till blockchain, we have very quick come up with tech, that's what we do. We are good at tribal work, and we are good at tech. So I think that is always one or two steps ahead of governments and organisations.
00:43:00
Harish: Right. And just a corollary or a passing thought, or a parallel to this, what you just mentioned, that struck me is, sometimes I think people these days, have more of a sense of kinship to some kind of a virtual world, right? You are sitting in the UK, I'm sitting here in Pune. Yes, there is a Pune connection as well for us. But you know, even if we were not from a place, given how we've been interacting, I have a bond with you already. There are more people, maybe somebody is in Estonia, somebody in the US, somebody in Bangladesh, all of us have that. So, would that become more and more sort of prominent, you know, people will feel more at home in the virtual world than in the real surroundings?
00:43:53
Siddharth: So if I was a conspiracy theorist, again, Harish, I would say, “What makes you feel that you're not in a virtual world right now?” Yeah. I would ask that question. But I am not a conspiracy theorist. But it is certainly a worthwhile argument. But if I have to discard that argument, and if I have to stick to this thing, reality, will we find virtual interests later on? The interesting part, the interesting part, the word that you used is kinship. Kinship typically is used in a biological way to determine the bond between members of the same family, brothers, sisters, there's a bond of blood, okay. And that's a biological thing. Now, you're saying you're experiencing kinship, okay. With people who are not connected by blood? Well, that's a very interesting thing. And that might be an adaptation, right? That actually might be an adaptation, right? Because if I look at biological drives, you're looking at kinship, you're looking at something called reciprocal altruism. So I scratch your back, you scratch mine, that happens in animals, it happens in human beings. Right? Then you're talking of survival. And you're talking of reproduction. So then these are drives, these are drives that are in us. But what you're saying is now we are kind of modifying kinship. Okay, we are modifying kinship to go beyond blood. So that is what I mean by adaptation.
00:45:31
Harish: Yeah. So, again, when you're talking about that you focus on a sense of kinship, right? So, organisational culture is something that, you know, people spend a lot of time and money on in trying to articulate, codify, and then sort of start living those values and all those things. So what role do you think the organisation culture plays in helping companies make the transition to a digital future?
00:45:57
Siddharth: I think, first of all, stop all Zoom parties, because they don't work. Okay. But I think if I have to look at it, from a serious perspective, how to look at organisational cultures, right? I look at culture as the evidence of human beings forming tribes and acting together as tribes. So my feeling is that where culture is right now is what is determining its actions for the future, but the future is different. So your culture has to be essentially different, which essentially means that I have to be very, very clear as a leader, that my current culture is not going to work in an environment, which is requiring adaptation. Now, as a leader, I don't want that because I want certainty, I want to prove some profitability and revenues to shareholders. If someday, leaders start saying my biological drives are different. They are going to get fired immediately. Right. But so therefore, there exists a deep requirement for the marriage of leadership, and culture as a phenotype. And an organisation as an extended phenotype. For all of this to work together, that doesn't exist today, at a certainly a project that I would be interested in being part of, because that is something that is going to determine our future. We should understand that organisations are illusions, they don't have the life of their own, culture is an illusion. Doesn't have a life of its own. It is a process of a tribe banding together.
00:47:49
Harish: Yeah. So in fact, we've been, in the last one and a half, two years, a lot of companies have come to us saying, oh, suddenly we've gone remote. How do we do this, you know, we've been doing this beer parties and all of that. How to make sure that, you know, so we first told them that see, just because in the earlier days, it was very easy for you to sort of quarrel people into a room saying, you know, sometimes guilt trip them, you know, five of your teammates are going you should also come and join this event, or whatever, whether they liked it or not. But now you can’t do that, right? People are more than happy saying that there are other important things to do. So suddenly your physical environment has changed. What all you put in your corporate headquarters, it's different. It's now my bookcase, my room, which is my physical environment, right? In some cases, my bed, a hammock or something like that. Right? So then how do you still build that, you know, sense of kinship? And this is actually a solved problem in other spheres. Right? If you look at something like religion we have that tribalism, whether it's a religion from any part of the world, right? You have the same thing of some mythology that is shared and propagated. There are some rituals, which sort of bind people, most rituals of any religion, you ask them. You try to rationally question why you're doing that. You don't have a reason. You're either trying to retrofit saying, Yeah, you know, some harvest season and all of that, but yeah, I mean, it's been happening, so we do Diwali or Dussehra or whatever. Right. So we've been trying to get people to do this, where we sort of codify what they think is their culture, both in terms of how things are operating today, and how would they want to operate it tomorrow at whatever level that they want to go to, and then make this come to life where we ask them to actually…
00:49:52
Siddharth: That's a great initiative. I think one of the reasons why I moved back to academics and to actually now teach across institutions was because I wanted to know, see, how do you know how to create for the future? It is when you understand what the future is going to be from humanity's perspective. Right. So, today, you know, I am connected with Gen Z and millennials in a much deeper way than what I was connected to say 10 years back. And that allows me a very different perspective on how organisations should be built to cater to those. they can't cater to us.
00:50:29
Harish: Yeah. And that's a serious empathy problem there, right? I mean, people who are now trying to make decisions about work from home hybrid, and all have never been in this situation where they're in what, 2-BHK with 2 six year old kids struggling to do homework, and you're now saying, Oh, come back to office. How can they manage that?
00:50:54
Siddharth: Right. Exactly. So I think that empathy is certainly a result of acknowledgement. To begin with, people have different issues, the new generation is different from my generation, right? Their value system is different. And then you get into empathy.
00:51:15
Harish: First is to acknowledge. Right, yeah. So moving to the corporate world, how do you expect the whole corporate learning to change you? You know, you're now at the cutting edge of how things are changing on the college side?
00:51:31
Siddharth: I did mention the requirement for lifelong learning. I think it's becoming more and more evident that people are going to find solutions of their own. Now, whether a corporate does so, supports individual employees, or individual employees find the answer, there will be solutions for both from both perspectives. Right now corporates, giving solutions, they're teaming up with people who can provide learning solutions, great educational institutes, as well as tech guys are doing it. And I think that there is a certain charm to it. But I think the reason why that is consumed is also for the certification aspect. But having been part of organisations wanting to transform themselves digitally, understanding that they want digital education, especially marketing or customer experience, or whatever. And having been part of initiatives like that, what I do recognize is that organisations need to think beyond the quarterly results. I think that is extremely important. But therefore, I have more faith in individuals taking action for themselves to become better. In whatever aspect there is, I think the unbundling of education is what we are going to see when a professor meets a student, it's like the music industry. You know, so that is what is likely to happen.
00:53:10
Harish: Right. And, you know, do you see this happening across all kinds of skills/areas, or are there some areas you're going to adopt this much earlier than others?
00:53:20
Siddharth: I think digital, all things digital are going to be at the forefront because people understand, oh, I need to know this, right. But tomorrow, it might be something different. Of course, it's going to be driven by market demand. So you're not going to try and learn the guitar if you can get a digital in that sense, because one of them is connected to your bottom line. The second is a hobby and that becomes extremely important for us to understand. So besides the digital aspect, I think there will be a requirement for management fundamentals for any person who is in the corporate area. Management fundamentals change over time, because when you actually join any management school, you're still learning something which has been in a different era. So that is what is happening. So I'm not knocking them. I think there's a place for that. But the fact is that you will need to keep updating that.
00:54:12
Harish: Yeah, I in fact, I recently read some post on LinkedIn where this person had actually shared a meeting with Philip Kotler who's 90+, and the first thing that he said is, okay, tell me how AI/VR is going to affect marketing. He was, you know, ready to change and learn. But it’s sad that people are still trying to just study what he wrote so many decades ago, right?
00:54:50
Siddharth: No, it's amazing that a 90+ guy who has the motivation and drive to actually learn the latest stuff in his field, I wish I am like that if I ever live up to it, because because all of us crave for that it’s enough or sort of thing, and it's something that we need to fight against.
00:54:58
Harish: Right. Yeah. So you know, another interesting thing that struck me when you said the guitar is a hobby, right? So if you just rewind to two years ago, right, when people suddenly had to switch to the online way of working, and suddenly all these leaders had to now start doing these calls and come up with inspirational talks, which were almost like they had to put on a show to rally the troops and all of that, right. So now, if you think about this whole idea of new media literacy, right, ability to use audio visual, as well as issues, like your fake news, and all those things is increasingly becoming very important for both the consumer and the creator. So how should leaders, especially the older ones, build these skills and build this awareness that yeah, today it is AV tomorrow, it could be like you said, you know, we are an Oculus Rift or whatever? How do they build the skills? And how do they build awareness?
00:56:10
Siddharth: Okay, I think the most important thing for leaders is to actually be unafraid to make asses of themselves, okay, because that is what is stopping them from trying to be more out there on say, Facebook or LinkedIn or Instagram, or whatever it is. And because as you know, you can only do it by doing it. You can't have a net practice in this game. So that's one. However, my advice to leaders would be to take a look at the top 10 influencers in their field, okay, and learn from the way in which they're engaging, because there's a reason why they're influencers. Because they have the ability to actually look into the camera and treat it like a friend. And that's a very critical skill, and most leaders don't have, they don't have it. They're extremely conscious. And all of us are conscious in that sense. And so is the influencer. But the fact is that they know how to kind of manage that and still go and get through, I think I would urge every leader to look at influencers in their field, just to observe how they're communicating.
00:57:24
Harish: Right. Yeah, yeah. In fact,when you mentioned that, the first question that we usually ask these leaders and they say, we want people to have authenticity in our team and all that. We say, Are there any opportunities where the guy who's just joined your team and you can be placed on the same pedestal in the company? And they said, No, actually, and that's what I miss, is what a lot of people also tell us, right? So and then we tell them that, yeah, you should probably just do a hackathon. Or we'll do a quiz, where you will be equally at sea. And you know, your fresher might actually be able to know more than you. Yeah, you get to know that you're vulnerable, right? Because otherwise, especially in the smaller teams, the founder, co-founder is like the hero.
00:58:19
Siddharth: Or they remain the hero and accept that, that is authenticity. That or this, but great idea to be involving people in activities when the CEO can literally be as all at sea. It is a very important vulnerable thing for the CEO to do.
00:58:40
Harish: Alright, so we've come to the end of this. A couple of things remain. One is the last section, which I'll come to later, but before that, any recommendations of books, podcasts, websites, influences that help you stay future relevant?
00:58:55
Siddharth: Okay. So I believe in first principles. So if I have to study marketing, I study anthropology, I study biology, I study sociology, and all of that. So Robert Sapolsky’s Stanford series on evolutionary biology is very good. I would certainly look at reading around marketing or around business transformation, rather than read about business transformation. Loonshots is a decent book, I think. You know what my problem with books is that they are kind of dated by the time they come out. Right. So my feeling is that okay, how can I so therefore podcasts, so I like Freakonomics, it is pretty decent. I like theories of everything, which is run by a guy called Curt Jaimungal who is pretty good. I like What else do I like? Yeah, I guess those are the things that I'm currently listening to. Otherwise, I'm just consuming a lot of junk.
01:00:09
Harish: So let's come to the last section where we will ask for your hot takes on some things. I'm going to give you a term or something. And I'm going to ask you what you think is the future relevance of that. So what do you think is the future relevance of podcasting?
01:00:27
Siddharth: I think building personal brands, till the time virtual reality happens.
01:00:33
Harish: Okay, I think that's very precise, it clearly shows that a lot of thinking has already gone into that, and this was not shared with you. What do you think is the future relevance of colleges or universities?
01:00:48
Siddharth: Diminishing, especially higher education. I think education is going to be bumped up. So you know, what you're learning at the PG level, you're going to learn at UG level? Sort of.
01:01:01
Harish: Okay. What do you think is the future relevance of LinkedIn?
01:01:06
Siddharth: I think it's growing. It's growing relevant. It's got set boundaries, which is good. Yeah, it's very positive. At a deeper level, I think LinkedIn focuses more on activities, rather than function, personality, you know, what I have done, rather than who I am, because everyone has to be humble on LinkedIn. So I think that that's not a bad thing. Sort of, I think it differentiates it from Facebook or Instagram.
01:01:39
Harish: Right. All right. And the final one, what do you think is the future relevance of Bollywood?
01:01:43
Siddharth: Bollywood, I think, when I heard how Salman Khan's film was treated, when it was released on OTT, you realise that unless and until theatre exists, Salman Khan is not going to exist in the same way. So the reason why I'm taking his example is that it has a connection with Bollywood. I went to see the latest James Bond film, it was highly praised and I couldn't sit through it. So our habits are changing, even before we understand that they're changing. And so therefore, Bollywood is going to be OTT.
01:02:24
Harish: On that note, I think what we've spoken for almost an hour, I have definitely become Smarter with Sid.
01:02:36
Siddharth: You are just too kind. The idea with Smarter with Sid is not that I'm making you smarter. We're all growing smarter.
01:02:45
Harish: This is the Smartcast. Let me take the credit. But yeah, this is fantastic so thanks a lot. I think we covered a whole range of, you know, topics that we wanted to cover around future relevance, Digital Futures, how people think about it.
01:03:03
Siddharth: So yeah, I've done a lot of podcasts. But this one really had some really interesting, thought through questions and great follow up questions from your side as well. It obviously shows that you know, you are in this field and you have thought through things. And the depth of the conversation also is an indicator of the fact that I'm talking to somebody who is in the know.
01:03:29
Alright, thanks. Thanks a lot. Thanks for those kind words. So that's it for now.
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