[CTQ Smartcast] Lessons in Future Relevance from a CEO's Career, With Akash Sureka
Akash Sureka is the CEO and MD of Tavisca, a customer loyalty technology platform, which is now a division of JPMorgan Chase and Company. He has been an entrepreneur and an advisor to start-ups and has a rich and diverse experience across technology and business roles in start-ups, unicorns, growing companies, as well as large listed companies.
This Smartcast, hosted by CTQ co-founder BV Harish Kumar, is an excellent opportunity to understand how one can prepare themselves for different roles and why that is important. We also see how the working backwards philosophy can help in pushing oneself out of their comfort zones and constantly making progress.
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(Read the shownotes below or skip to the transcript)
SOME OF THE THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT
Akash’s journey: From an engineer to an entrepreneur to a CEO.
How to build confidence and take opportunities out of your comfort zone?
Amazon’s working backwards philosophy.
How to juggle between different roles efficiently?
Always having a learning mindset.
How must organizations adapt to hybrid?
How can tech founders get better at other skills?
Changes in work post COVID.
PLUS
Future of work at Tavisca and how the employees are staying future relevant?
AND
Future relevance of one day cricket.
LINKS TO PEOPLE AND BOOK MENTIONED IN THE SMARTCAST
PEOPLE
Mark Zuckerberg, Facebook
Sheryl Sandberg, Facebook
Satya Nadella, Microsoft
Sundar Pichai, Google
Shantanu Narayen, Adobe Systems
BOOK
If you enjoyed this Smartcast, you will also like How Should Founders Think About Building A Culture For Future Relevance, With Ria Shroff Desai
TRANSCRIPT OF THE EPISODE
00:00:00
Harish Kumar: Akash Sureka is the MD of Tavisca, a customer loyalty technology platform, which is a division of JPMorgan Chase and Company. Akash has been an entrepreneur and advisor to startups and has a rich and diverse experience across technology and business roles in startups, unicorns, growing companies, as well as large listed companies. So we asked Akash about how he has traversed his career path, how he prepared himself for different roles, and how he works on his own future relevance. Akash told us about the working backward philosophy, just like how companies start with the destination postcard and work backwards to figure out what it will take to get to the future destination. Individuals should also think about where they want to be, and keep stretching themselves, pushing themselves out of their comfort zones to constantly make progress in the direction of their destination. If you are interested in future relevance lessons from leaders and organizations, please do check out our website where you can check out how we can help you and your team stay future relevant. Subscribe to our Telegram Channel and our weekly smartletter. For now, let's listen to Akash share his secrets about how he applied the working backward philosophy to his professional life.
00:01:38
Harish: Hi, Akash. Welcome to the CTQ Smartcast.
00:01:41
Akash: Thank you Harish, very good morning to you.
00:01:45
Harish: Yeah, thanks and you know after a lot of back and forth we decided to do this on a Sunday morning. So let's make this Sunday morning worthwhile for both of us and our listeners.
00:01:55
Akash: Absolutely and you should get an advantage of being a friend and a college buddy.
00:02:00
Harish: Of course. So that's going to be my biggest challenge today, trying to make sure I ask you questions from a third-person view and not the closed view that I have always had about your life and your career. So let me start with this question and I think this is a great question to start today's interview with. So the journey from an engineer to an entrepreneur to the CEO of a great mid-sized company and to now MD of a JPMorgan Company. So briefly talk me through this entire journey.
00:02:42
Akash: Yeah and it's not been an easy journey anyways. But yeah, I think it actually goes back to the roots. In fact, when I was in my 11th and 12th standard I was actually looking to become a Chartered Accountant, just because my mathematics was really good and in small towns when your mathematics is good the only career option your parents or your families or your nearby will give you, “Okay, why don't you become a chartered accountant because you're good with the numbers.” So you know and surprisingly what happened is I was sitting with a friend of mine during my 10th standard farewell party and is a very good friend of mine though we lost touch in the last few years he said you know, if your maths is good, it doesn't mean that you only have to do or become a chartered accountant. There are a lot of other specializations and future career options you can look at and why don’t you look at engineering as a career? Now, I said why would somebody look at engineering as a career? I'm talking about this by the way in the 94-95 timeframe. So like you know 25-30 years since now so and you know, that's where I think that conversation actually became much more fruitful and he could explain what is technology and IT and its future and I would give heads up to him, he is like a young guy, same age, same class and he's talking 10 years ahead of me. He was like okay so and then I started exploring engineering so that's how my engineering career at least started. So I took up electronic communications, came to Pune and so on right. So this was a story in 10th standard and when I came to 12th standard somebody started saying to me, “You know what, why don't you go do a chemistry specialization in order to become a chemical engineer?” Okay, you know, when I said engineering doesn't necessarily mean that I have to do chemical engineering right, and sitting in labs over there, that's certainly not my interest. But coming again from small towns, sometimes college perceptions are different from the future perceptions. So people and the family are like why don't you do chemical engineering because that's one of the greatest colleges in Maharashtra or in India, right. So, but again, another friend of mine came for my rescue, and by the way, no offence to chemical engineering. Another friend came and he said, you know, why don't you go to Pune, it’s nice weather, you will really enjoy the college, you do engineering and IT technology. That's what he wanted to do. And I ended up in Pune and I think that's how we met as well, by the way, in the same college. So that's how my engineering career actually started, you know, obviously, post that I got a placement in Motorola, I was doing electronics and again this switch happened because I was doing electronics and wireless at that point of time, very fond of Texas Instruments, Motorolas and Intels of the world. It was in the 2000-2001 timeframe as you know it was the great recession time as well and that helped in a minor way to move to my software career in a way. So that's how my engineering career started right but eventually, even when I started that and maybe you can give reference to my roots over there, I always wanted to, in my mind frame I was very clear I want to become a CEO at one point of time. Now whether that CEO would be a professional CEO role or would that be an entrepreneur role you know, was not defined at that particular point in time and obviously, I was not in a hurry. But I think from a mind-frame standpoint, I was very much clear that at one point in time I want to be a CEO. And then as I progressed in my own career and you know, and I started becoming older, the obviously entrepreneurial journey was something which I had in my mind as well right? Which could be pre-CEO or post-CEO, whatever that could be. So I think it all started with that and to make sure that you would make justice in the future obviously I took a lot of educational lessons as well. I also engrossed myself in other activities on how you deal with customers, how you talk about business. I mean, at one point of time, you know, I was working in a smaller company and they were so confident in me that I was going in closing the deal, I was going and doing the technology, I was going into the delivery, I was going and doing the customer support right. And I banked upon it. Primarily I never said no to anything because I said this is the time to kind of spend more time on some of these activities and as that’s going to be helping you in the future as well. So I grabbed every opportunity that came my way in different ways whether it's technology, whether it's a product, whether it's about customer engagement, whether it's about sales to an extent. Just grab it as much as possible and be confident and continuously work on that, and learn more and more things. I think that the learning phase never stopped for me and it still happens today that how do you learn from different people, how do you learn from different opportunities, how do you learn from different scenarios and situations. Keep improving yourself again, never putting you on top of anybody right? At the same time, every single person who comes into life becomes a teacher for me right as an example. So that journey was laid out now to an extent thoughtful to an extent non-thoughtful as well. But that's how you know started as an engineer, started picking up more roles at one point of time you know, obviously then looking at some opportunities got into on our entrepreneurial journey as well, ran it for some time, got an exit with a listed company in India and then kind of evolving to a CEO role which eventually I wanted to do, right? And at one point in time, sometimes people ask if you started one company wouldn't you want to do one more? And I took one more pause because even on an entrepreneur journey, I didn't want to kind of go just like that so I took quite an amount of time like eight-nine years to kind of get myself prepped up to get into an entrepreneur role. Similar to getting into a CEO role I wanted to kind of explore such roles so that as you grow forward in your life and if you don't want to do one more venture or a third venture, you can grow in those roles as well. So learning from smaller companies and mid-sized companies, cross-business, tech product ecosystem, that’s how that constant churn of learning always used to happen, and that was quite mindful. Also, how do I want to progress so I think that's how the journey has come along. I think I'm still young by the way, But I'm still young. So a lot more things to come in the future. Very excited about what's happening across the world. A lot of opportunities as a CEO, as an entrepreneur in the future. So right. And we'll constantly work towards that. I feel that maybe this is one more life to start with, and then there are a lot many things to be done. With JPMorgan now, obviously, you know, as the acquisition has happened, we have to do so many things, we are scaling. Hyperscale for us, hyper-growth, to do a lot of things, both from a technology standpoint and both from the market standpoint and it's going to be a humongous learning opportunity again, right, working in a different ecosystem altogether. That is how the journey has been, and I hope it continues in a similar way.
00:10:30
Harish: Yeah. A couple of things struck me, one was how you mentioned that there was a deliberate direction that you wanted to take, but you also wanted to spend time learning the ropes, learning the basics, before you take up that next milestone, and during that duration, it was more about grabbing all the opportunities that came your way and not picking and choosing something. So that was very interesting. In fact, I remember, when we used to speak, I think back in 2003-04, and what you were doing was the kind of work that the standard engineering or an individual contributor role a person would do. Filing for patents and doing that kind of highly technical work. But when you had this in your roadmap somewhere that you wanted to be a CEO. So, just talk me through how people should actually do these kinds of things, where they're excelling at what they're doing right now. But having that vision that yeah, this is where we want to be so that requires taking up opportunities taking up things that are pushing you out of your comfort zone and doing this. Because there are two aspects to it. One is you being ready for it, and the other is the company being ready to give you that responsibility and that challenge as well. But how should you build that confidence in others to be able to do that?
00:12:07
Akash: Yeah and I think to look, sometimes there is no straight answer for this, but this is as good as your education system as well, right. And this goes back to your backward planning. As an example, if you want to become even an engineer, or if you want to become a chartered accountant, if you want to become a doctor, right, you start backwards planning. You start putting yourself in that shoe, seven-eight years before, you take special specializations for that, you focus on certain subjects versus other subjects, you focus on that environment and ecosystem. And we sometimes do this inherently, even when we are in schools and colleges. People, who are really focused on what they want to do 10 years from now or five years from now? And the same thing applies to your other career options as well. It's all about how you do your backward planning right? So if you're certain in your mind that five years from now, I want to become obviously let's say for example as a CEO of small or mid-size or a bigger company, so what do those characteristics entail and for those characteristics, what are the planning we have to do? And for those plans, how do you want to start coming out of your existing company looking at other options as well? Now, for that you may have to do a lot of movements as well you know particularly because if you are in a specific zone in your current state, that zone may not allow you because of different other parameters to start exploring other things as well. So you have to kind of come out of that zone, broaden your zone a bit, you have to meet people, you have to be more open, you have to learn more and more things, and based on those parameters, you have to start focusing on other things as well. And then execute on that, by the way. So it’s not just about you reading about it or it is not about talking to people about it. It is also about how you personally execute that. As an example, if you're a technologist today as an example and then five years from my own to become somebody. So as a technologist, can you go and talk to your customer? That's the least you can do, in fact. Then as you start talking to the customer, can you take the additional responsibility for doing a revenue expansion with the customer as an example? Then can you start engagement with your marketing teams? Can you start engaging with your finance teams? Can you start engaging with your sales teams and so on. That's how you have to start broadening your horizon while executing it in real-time. If you don't do that, it is only taught if you only meet people if you only read about it, and you're not allowing yourself to come out and actually do it on the grounds without being very specific about it, because that's the whole learning zone. You have to be very open, you have to listen, you may not be right in those zones, because we were right in one zone, but you may not be right in other zones. So that's how I think it's all about how do you do backward planning? And then how do you execute on that, and at the same time, you're open, and you're engaging your other stakeholders to start understanding that whole ecosystem of your future role. And as long as you can do that, I think that's where you start realizing that you're making progress in that direction. And I'm sure if you excel at it, obviously, it has to deal with your competency, capability, execution and successful outcome as well. If you show those check marks in that ladder, you are certainly in the right direction to achieve what you want to achieve as part of that role. And that's exactly what I also did. I was never stuck as a technologist, though even today, I'm a technologist. So I can go and I can do a blueprint of any large solution, you know, the same way as a hands-on architect will do today. I can go and talk to fresh college engineers who will come out with great ideas, and then still do that, right. And that's what I think you can keep as your core advantage, but spread your wings and execute on those other areas to become what you want to be.
00:16:28
Harish: Right. I think that the working backwards philosophy is excellent. It was made popular by Amazon with the book about how you actually start with the end goal and then work backwards. We all have heard about it and I think yours is a great example of actually having lived it as well and living to create a T-shaped career where you have your distinct advantage, your expertise. But you've also expanded yourself and it's not a very narrow focus area for yourself, right. So that's fantastic.
00:17:07
Akash: In fact, to your point of those goals. You're right, Amazon, it's everybody, whether it's a company, or it's an individual, or some great examples, by the way, I'm still a small fish in the pond. But even if you take great people, that's how they looked at it many times. And I think one thing to remember is to set higher goals and work towards them. So as long as you keep on setting higher goals, and keep on working towards it, you will end up to a goal, which may not be so high as what you've thought about, but you still end up achieving the goal that you wanted to achieve. So the idea is to set 100% higher goals than your actual goal.
00:17:48
Harish: Correct. Yeah, I think that desire to push yourself is what makes people different, people who have achieved something. With the desire to push themselves out of their comfort zone, I think it's very easy for people to say, “No, this is good in whatever I'm doing.” Because it's like the standard rate of growth, right, you keep doing this, you will get somewhere, obviously, you'll get somewhere because things are going well. But if you want to make that jump, you need to think differently, as well. So on that note, I know that you're also looked up to by entrepreneurs, founders who come to you for advice around building products, building companies, while you are a CEO yourself. And if I could say an engineering CEO, if there is a term like that, who is equally good at engineering, as well as managing the business side of it. So how do you manage all these things? Are there very different hats that you wear, different personalities that you take to these different kinds of demands of these roles that you have?
00:18:55
Akash: I think, in fact, to an extent, yes. So look, when you work with startups, the context is very different. When you work with emerging entrepreneurs, the context is very different. Because the ecosystem is sometimes different. The pool of resources is different, the opportunities are different, the level of mindsets required are different. So when I am advising somebody from a product company standpoint, or an entrepreneur standpoint, I can't have the same CEO hat because as a CEO, in a company, I might have an abundance of resources, I might have a very different ecosystem, I may have a different set of stakeholders to deal with. And that's not true for that particular company or a founder, I'm advising. So, absolutely, I have to wear a different hat. I have to bring in my whole experience of what I've done in the past. I have to bring in my current experiences with how the world looks at it at the same point of time, because being part of a bigger company sometimes does give you extra leverage, the advantage of knowing a lot more things than the founder at that particular stage may not know, right. And also the networks of what you have and what you learn from them, and so on. So you have to wear a different hat, you have to be more collaborative in nature with that particular founder or company and listen more and then act. Because sometimes as the CEO, you have to achieve something and you have some plan in your mind, and you kind of want to execute on that very rigorously. Otherwise, sometimes it becomes difficult in a large environment to achieve your outcomes. But you can't do that in the same startup environment. So yes, you have to wear different hats, you have to bring a different experience, your past nature of that particular one, then combine it with what you are in the current zone, and make that as a package for that particular entrepreneur or a company to take advantage of. And at the end of the day, I always say that as an advisor, and I've been sitting on boards earlier, as well, I have been more, keeping the decision making with the founders. And because they are the best people to judge, pick up what makes sense, and then execute on that. And so that's how, you know, as you kind of manage some of these other activities around you, it helps those people as well. And at the same time, it helps me because as I said, I think there's learning that never stops. You get to learn so many other things, even if you would have gone through a similar situation, or similar context, or similar phase in your life earlier. Every new context brings different learning for you. And that can help me as well to eventually do something on what I'm doing currently, or what I'm going to do in the future, right. So it's always a cross-pollination of learning opportunities. And you have to wear that hat as well. The hat is not always about advising somebody else. But that also is how do you pick up? How do you learn a few things, which are new things for you as well? So you have to keep on wearing those hats. Absolutely, yes.
00:22:13
Harish: Right. So, one thing that I've clearly gleaned from what you've said, is being open and having that learning mindset. But were there any other mindset changes that you thought you had to make in yourself, to be able to get to this point where you are doing these different kinds of things? How was the journey in terms of just preparing yourself from a mindset point of view?
00:22:37
Akash: The answer is tricky. And, and this goes back to the same thought where we started this call with, but see, I think, from a mindset point of view, it's largely about whether you want to learn more, I think that's the way to start with as opposed to, whether you want to give back more. I mean, my mindset is whether you want to learn more, and I think that is the main framework, in my mind, which I follow, and because of which, it teaches you to be humble with people, because of which it teaches you to be more collaborative with people. It teaches you to not be more prescriptive about what you want to do versus, more collaborative, or what do you want to do and so on, and in the same sort of deep learning. So I think that mindset of being open to learning at any stage of your life helps you to get into these different roles at different points of time, primarily. And that has always worked for me at least.
00:23:42
Harish: Right. Another thing that struck me, Akash, was when we started this conversation you spoke about these two three anecdotes about your friend telling you something and then someone else talking to you about engineering. So clearly you remember you know these incidents, these anecdotes. So is reflection, a large part of what you do in terms of learning as well when you look back at how things have progressed and you say, “Okay, this is the lesson that I draw from my stint in this company. These are the big learnings for me. These are things that I could have done differently.” How do you do that? Do you take notes? What do you think about it? Do you set aside time for this?
00:24:25
Akash: No, some of these are just like swimming lessons. So once you know swimming you can't forget swimming. That's all it is. So no it's strictly I take very few notes by the way unless if it's a professional working context. But I know some of the life lessons are just like swimming lessons. You just learn them and you never forget about it. You know, and you keep on working on that again and again. I mean there's no method or there's no framework to that primarily. As I said, you just have to, if you are in that journey as I am in, you will inherently remember some of the past failures or learning or success or gaps or differences, or your friends or your network or your family who have helped you in different times of your life. So I think, no specific hack around it. And I'm sure inherently as a human being will just remember some of those things, as long as you're in your career progression. So if you are working towards, as I said, higher goals every single time, no matter if you're a CEO, no matter if you're a unicorn founder, no matter if you're a startup founder, and so on. As long as you have that mindset, you'll keep on remembering all of those things, and you will make sure that you are doing better in your next role.
00:25:52
Harish: Alright. Okay. So, we’ll make a slight digression now. I want you to wear your advisor kind of hat and talk to me about how tech founders should be thinking about building their business? So we've often seen that engineering founders have this tendency, though, the first the default is to start building a product, you know, we'll look at it from a very engineering mindset. And they fail to look at the other side of things like networking, working on the business, instead of working in the business. So how should these people who probably don't have a systemic background of doing these kinds of things, because of the way our entire education system is organized, that you know, you just go write these exams, solve these problems, and you think marks are what life is. But when you start looking at things like this, it becomes different, suddenly, there are so many other things that are at play. And you know, that’s where, again, these people need to be pushed outside of their comfort zone. So how would you advise these engineering/tech founders to get better at these other skills?
00:27:15
Akash: Yeah, by the way, that framework is nowadays changing. I see a lot of young smart engineers are doing a much better job than maybe our generation. Maybe we were the ones who were not following the way it should be. But I see that change when I meet a lot of young founders now, investing in a few as well. So I've seen that dramatic change, wherein a lot of this, young engineers by heart are thinking about business or thinking about investments or thinking about expansion, they're thinking about building large companies in different ways. And they're going out of their zones already. But for those who are still not in that mind frame as of today, I think essentially you have to see what, what kind of company you want to build in. I remember when I started my first company, and obviously, I had less learning. At that time, I was looking to build a more IP-centric company, wherein you build IPs, you build great products and technologies, you get more patterns. And again, to an extent, it was an engineering mindset to build an IP-centric company, there was nothing wrong with it because there are a lot of IP-centric companies globally. But at the same point in time, because we wanted to build a company as well, we started doing our sales from day one. I started meeting my potential customers and clients, and stakeholders, including investors from day one, when we kick-started on the ground. So I think for engineers it is important that what do you want to achieve, you want to build a great company. If you want to build a great company inherently, other than building a great product, you have to build great customers, you have to break you know, get great investors, sometimes you have to build a great ecosystem. And to do that, you have to start putting yourself into those shoes from day one, as opposed to a later point in time. So you can think, let me build a product for three years and then I'll start doing some of these things, you may have absolutely no chance of doing that. Because then the probability of failures becomes much higher because you just don't even know what you're building is right or wrong. So I think it's just about as an engineer, can you think outside of the box of your product in tech, and essentially these are all smart folks. All engineers are smart folks because they are engineers. So it is just about getting out of that shoe a bit and kind of exploring more and learning. And sometimes the other important gap is that somebody might feel that because I can build a great product, I can also build a great company. And sometimes for some people, because of human nature, it may not be true. That's where you need some great co-founders or great leadership eventually. And you would have seen, Facebook is a good example. Mark Zuckerberg will make sure that he built a great team. He built a great leadership team, got Sheryl Sandberg who built a great company along with him. A lot of other companies where founders knew their limitations, as technologists, they made sure they had the counterparts to take care of other things that they can’t do. And that has been a great success. So first you need to decide whether you are ready to take up some of those additional things around engineering, other than engineering. And if you are not, then you have to make sure that you have the right people working with you as co-founders or as your team members and give them all the freedom to execute on those lines, to build a great company. So either of the two. And sometimes look, there are people who say that this is my zone, and I want to stick to my zone. And I may not want to come out of that zone, which is fair, sometimes as human nature, which is fair, right, and there's nothing wrong or right about it. But if you're deciding to be in a particular zone, then you need to make sure that you have other people to take care of other zones and for some founders that that is working out well, and for other founders that will work out as well. And as you go out, whether it's your customer, or whether it's about your investor, they do look out at what's your team. And that's very much to the same point whether the team is holistic, makes sense for building a great company as opposed to just one single person. So there are solo founder examples. Solo founder examples have been large because they were able to pull all the things together, whether it's engineering, product, technology, sales, marketing, customers, and so on. But if you're not, then you have to get the right people.
00:31:55
Harish: Yeah, I think it again, boils down to the whole working backwards philosophy. Where do you want to be? And then that decides what game you want to play? And then are you cut out to play that game? If not, do you want to add more people to your team to play that game? It just boils down to that.
00:32:10
Akash: Correct. Exactly.
00:32:15
Harish: Yeah. So coming to your current role at Tavisca. Tavisca has been one of the great places to work, listed as a great place to work. Now is the JP Morgan company, what is your contribution right now. If I were to ask you, what are the top three contributions that you are making at Tavisca?
00:32:42
Akash: No. Well, this is something which I'm breathing every single day. For me, we have a very clear priority, build a world-class platform. So we are into loyalty and a space where travel is one of our levers and then obviously non-travel as we expand. So building a world-class platform, because we are the ones who are building a global platform from India, from Pune, from Tavisca. And we continue to up our game, day by day. The second priority is to build operational excellence around it. So the only way to scale, grow and build great platforms is to ask if you have the right excellence in nature in all of your operational workflows, in your teams, in your workings, in your customers’ engagement, and so on. And the third one is to build a people's culture. So you know, as you build a great culture, as you have the right people, you will eventually build great products, you will eventually have the right excellence and make so you will have the right customers and the right engagement and right businesses moving forward. So it's all about people at the end of the day. So those are the three top priorities we keep on talking about, we always talk about how we make our platform world-class, we always talk about how we have excellence as we scale? You know, and then thirdly, as we do that, and by the way, this is not in priority order, it is all in the same priority setting. And then how do you have the right people's culture, to give them the freedom, to give them some autonomy to work, to give them the right environment to build that excellence and platforms. So those are our three top priorities. And that showed it has helped us to even get recognized as a great place to work earlier as well before the acquisition. So that's how we'll keep on pushing ourselves very hard on those three top priorities as we expand.
00:34:44
Harish: Right, right, so can you give me some concrete examples of how you ensure that the team actually gets a great culture, you are building that great culture at Tavisca? Can you give me some concrete examples of what people outside can look forward to in a company like Tavisca?
00:35:01
Akash: Yeah. So this goes back to their saying, we have this whole freedom, autonomy and respect sort of a culture wherein we go after some goals as opposed to day by day how we really are making it more stringent and making it more difficult for people to achieve that. So it’s just all of us coming together and making sure that we working towards that goal together, and providing all help we can, whether it's about getting the right leadership for them, whether it's getting the right environment for them, whether it's getting about right tools and framework in the mind, whether it's giving the right environment to work upon. So I think all goes well. And we do this day by day. So I can't pick one single example. And say that this is where we're doing it because we're doing this, our freedom, the autonomous culture, and the respect, we do this in every single thing, what we do. We do that during COVID, as well. We made sure that the right vaccination drives, we made sure that we are looking at their families as well, at the same point of time, constantly seeking out their families, how they are doing because many times, even if the employees were doing good, their families were not doing good. So we made sure that we are sending some token of appreciation for their families as well, and so that they can get well, all sorts of support required. So, this is all because we want to give them the right environment to work in at the same time give them more freedom to work upon and so on. So in our case, our demography is also very young. And hence, it becomes easier to inculcate some of this culture many times, because young generations are always open and always seek freedom in what they have to do. So whether it's about a technology product, as long as it is aligned with the company, and the business goals, a lot of times people have that whole way of freedomness, and their autonomous nature, to build and create and deliver on those things. So I mean, we've been applying this every single place, every single thing, to what we do in our company.
00:37:25
Harish: Right and how have things changed post-March 2020?
00:37:29
Akash: Well, so I think it's a million-dollar question. So I think things have changed dramatically, in a way that you have lost personal touch with people. And the importance of being more trustworthy has never been so important earlier. So I think for us, our level of trust has gone very high versus what it was earlier. And that has helped us to sail through properly post 2020. But yeah, I think that was the most important change we have seen after 2020. We've not seen people for a long time, we're still working together. Everybody's remote, as you know, hopefully by early next year, people will start seeing some faces. But at the same time, how do you build trust? And then how do you build that cushion of freedom so that people are working around the same goals without any problem? So I think people management has been a very different ballgame post-2020 versus pre-2020. Rest, I think things have been largely the same. You had Zoom earlier, as well as Teams, as well as your Slack. So I think most of those things were constant. What changed is the people and managing people, gaining their trust, putting trust in them, has been a very different experience post-2020. So it has not been easy. It has been very tough, very hard as well. But yeah, we could sail through those changes, and we're constantly working. And maybe this is good learning, even when people start coming into the office. It's different learning in the last 12 to 18 months. And it's important to apply those learnings even when people come into the offices. So how do you make sure that your trust levels are the same, how do you make sure that you still give them that particular freedom, even if you start seeing them face to face, and so on? Even if you look at this, not from a CEO point of view, but a simple managerial and the teams. Earlier when you're in the office, maybe a manager is sometimes slightly hard and constantly seeking input from the teams and maybe sometimes stress levels are low, maybe sometimes the involvement is more but now this would have given more learnings to the managers and they would treat and they would work very differently with the team members, in a way. So some of those aspects have changed post-2020. And I think it is essential that we use those learnings and apply them even when they are face to face, you know, sometime next year.
00:40:16
Harish: Right. Yeah, I think that that's a fascinating point because we've been helping companies, both with propagating the culture at work through different things. And we've also been helping some companies decide their return to work policy, I say, work, because it is still open, whether it's going to be hybrid, whether it's going to be fully remote or back in the office, they're just trying to figure this out. And one thing that we've been trying to get these people to think, it's been a fundamental change, take all the positives from what has happened in the last 18 months and apply them to whatever you're going to do next because that is what is going to define your future of work. So according to you, what is the future of work at Tavisca?
00:41:01
Akash: You are putting me on the spot.
00:41:06
Harish: So no easy questions, Akash.
00:41:12
Akash: Yeah, so I may restrain from what we want to do. But I think to look, in my mind, you have to look in the context. There are many companies that are fully remote even before COVID and they have done a fabulous way of collaboration and are successful. And there were companies that we’re fully in the office, and they have been successful. I think in my mind, those two models might work in the future, either you're fully remote, or fully in an office. Hybrid would work in a different context. And I'm not saying that hybrid won't work. But this is my personal thought right on where to see how it evolves. Hybrid will work as a cross-location strategy, when I say location, I'm restricting location to a country. So now it wouldn't matter in which zone of the world you are in, right, somebody could be new, somebody could be in Europe, somebody could be in India and still do the same work at the same velocity. So I think from a hybrid standpoint, I feel that the cross-country hybrid model may still work and would still work in a different way. However, if you're in the same country, there might be a need to be in a particular location, where all the people are. And this is just because of look at some of the nitty-gritty, as you start looking at it. I mean, imagine you and me, we are sitting in, in an office, and one of our team members is sitting outside. Obviously, that particular team member might feel siloed. Because inherently, when you're in the same room, you talk about a few things, your voices are not modelled like that, that person may not hear about it. And that person might feel, you know, that I'm either intentionally being left out, or I'm just left out because I'm just not in that same room. That may push people to be in the same location is where my thought is. So I'm not saying that the hybrid model is wrong, I'm just saying that at a ground level, when you start executing that, people will start feeling siloed and that may turn out to be a churning point for those people because then that person might feel like I'm not adding value because I'm sitting in a different location, so let me lookout for something in my own town or my own city,” right. So I think from a company standpoint, the company should be very clear. What do they want to do, if it's in office, be in office, if it's remote, go fully remote? If it's in a hybrid, you will turn out on the risk of what I've just mentioned, whether people getting left out, people feeling siloed or people feeling they're not getting engaged appropriately, and then that increases the risk of attrition as well. And for people who want to work hybrid, they must explore whether that will work for them or not. And by the way, after these 18 months, many people want to come, they want to see faces, they want to get out of their families, they want to get out of their houses. So but a lot of people who want to look at working remotely, I don't think there's a straight answer. People, companies will have to be liberal based on what people want, as long as people are comfortable with that, I think that's what I would end up with. People are comfortable with working hybrid and still feel that they are engaged and not feeling siloed and separated and not adding to the risk of attrition. If people are comfortable, committed, confident, then I think it makes sense. But if not, then it may not work for some companies, it may work for some companies and this is now no single rule getting applied to all. So some will have a different way of working and it will all depend on the context and the nature of people. The nature of people may also vary from company to company, there will be certain nitty-gritty. But I would say, we being a people-centric culture, we just want to do what people are comfortable with. And whether that comfort is a commitment and confidence as opposed to just because I'm lazy.
00:45:54
Harish: Right, yeah, I think in my opinion, the next two to three years is going to be very tricky in the sense that both companies and people will have to be very open and not fixated on one thing or the other. Companies cannot be fixated. And people also cannot be fixated there, this is the only way I'm going to work because things are going to evolve, and you will see repercussions. You're actually going to see the churn numbers and all 6-12 months down the line. Then there'll be some changes in policies, and then you'll again try to recalibrate. So I expect the next two to three years to be in this state of flux, where everyone is going to try and figure out what works best for them. I think that is very key because given their nature probably even given their expertise levels as well, right. But for some people, the company may want to change their policies because they don't want to lose those individuals as well. So it's going to be tricky.
00:46:55
Akash: I think the main problem will come up between tier one and tier two towns. So tier one town, it's not much of a problem because many times at least larger organizations like us, we have a presence in Bangalore, Hyderabad, Delhi, Mumbai, and Pune. So in a way we have a presence in a lot of these towns already so people are anyways working in those towns, so we have certain flexibility around it. But when it comes to tier two where the problem will start coming around, right, where people will want to come out and be part of tier one again, some people need freedom in a life-changing lesson for them in the last 18 months. So that’s where problems of separation come and then how it works out. Maybe it's better that people experience it, both companies also experience as you rightly said, and let people also experience it, and then take a call with what's working and what's not working, and then decide about it. And I think that's how I agree with you that we'll have to look around next year, what's really working and then how people are getting comfortable with and then start making sense.
0:48:03
Harish: So on a similar note Akash, given everything that is happening in the world, the way people work, society, technology, everything is changing. So future relevance becomes very important. How do you stay relevant tomorrow? And what can you do about it today in order to be relevant tomorrow? So how do you ensure people at Tavisca are staying future relevant? How do you work towards that?
00:48:35
Akash: The relevancy for the future may vary from company to company. So, for us, our relevancy for the future is obviously more technology-centric. You know, how do we become more and more cloud-native? So we are training our people, we are asking people to do a lot of courses, we're trying to convert our people from one stack to full-stack, and kind of asking them to become future relevant. You know, when we are all cloud as an example, obviously, cybersecurity is another area wherein we are training our people around all the cyber postures and dependencies and problem statements and what future cyber state would look like, and so on. So we're investing a lot in that as well. And getting people trained and ready for that. As I said, we continuously keep on evolving on building world-class platforms. So what does that platform look like? What does it require to build that platform for the next three years? And how should that mindset be? What are the skills required? So we keep on investing in that as well. So that's how I think it's all about investing in our people, building up their skills, giving them the right environment, to be ready for the future. That's our context. And obviously, I can't disclose our business goals. But based on those business goals, we're investing into our people, relatively to be ready for that. So it's all about how do you invest? How do you work backwards? How do you then train your people? How do you give them the right environment to learn constantly, day by day, and constantly think about it? And then executing on it when you're ready when that day comes of the future relevancy? So we are doing all that. In our context, these are some of the points where we are investing a lot to be relevant for the future in terms of technology, business products, and so on.
00:50:39
Harish: Right. And for you individually, how are you looking at your own future relevance? What are you doing today in order to be relevant, saying 2025-2030?
00:50:53
Akash: So that's a great question. So for me, it's about how do you take larger roles from here. So obviously, you get inspired by people like Satya Nadella, Sundar Pichai and Shantanus of the world, and so on. I'm looking at them for inspiration, and then maybe at one point in time, you achieve that stage in your life and work towards it. So I'm hoping it happens. And then let's see what that's all. I'm looking at myself from, you know, five years, 10 years from now, whether you can achieve a similar state in your life.
00:51:36
Harish: Right, right. And how does your day look like today?
00:51:40
Akash: I’m in a way a fitness freak. So my day starts with 60 minutes of exercise. Sometimes it starts with that and sometimes I've been juggling between, but that's one of the important activities of my day. And then after, spend some time with my key leaders, every day on different aspects of the business and company. And then third, spend time with some other people to understand and make them explain where we are heading, what we are supposed to do and how to do it right away? And then keep on working on those three priorities. So building that world-class platform, excellence, and then people’s culture. So we're constantly thinking and executing day by day on what you have to do with the help of your leaders and your team members. I think it's, it starts with fitness, it eventually ends up with a long sleep after the day. But in a way, during the day, you know, talk to your HR because actually there the people-ness come into the picture. Then talk to your technology leaders, because that's where we're trying to build our platform, and then work with other divisions of the company to get operational excellence. Right. So all our investments, including my investment, are based on those three priorities every single day working with those different people in different divisions.
00:53:12
Harish: All right. Okay, so we've come to the end of this. I'm going to end this with my last section, where I will ask you for your hot take on the future relevance of certain things. So the first question is, what do you think is the future relevance of customer loyalty?
00:53:31
Akash: The relevance in the terms of what significance priority or?
00:53:36
Harish: How things are going to change in that?
00:53:38
Akash: Oh, yeah. So I think customer loyalty is the only retention currency for anybody. So the future relevance of customer loyalty is very high. Every single company has to think about loyalty and engagement for their end-users because that's the only way they can scale their business. That's the only way they can have stickiness with their users. That is the only way they can learn from the users and do more for the users. Absolutely great things to come around for customer loyalty and a lot more companies will focus more and more on that. With today's competitive world and ecosystem, it becomes much more important for people to have the right loyalty engagements and programs for their end-users. Otherwise, it is just so hard to retain the user. So this will go to a different scale altogether as we move forward.
00:54:33
Harish: What is the future relevance of engineering managers?
00:54:38
Akash: That's tricky. So with this whole low code, no code thing, which is coming out in the future, it's going to be tricky. So I think engineering managers coming back, going back to our other conversation, engineering managers would start wanting to look out at different hats as the dependency on technologies thanks to artificial intelligence may go in a different direction altogether, we don't know that future 10 years from now. So the relevance of engineering managers obviously stays, you know, and I would rather call them technology managers versus engineering managers because the flavours of technologies will keep on changing. Today it's codeful, tomorrow, it will be codeless, but the technology will still remain right. So you still have to be good in that particular technology to do something about it. So the relevancy of engineering managers will be more of technology managers and then within technology managers, how do you wear different hats at the same point of time to stay relevant? And I know one company that asks every engineering manager to talk to the clients. In fact, they switch roles then every month they ask the technology for their engineering managers to become customer success managers and talk to the customers. So I think the relevance of engineers will be there as technology and if you can engage with your clients and customers. The same way an account manager would do today that our customer success team would do that then only I think there is relevance for them 10 years from now.
00:56:14
Harish: Right. Okay. What is the future relevance of these traditional startup bases like Silicon Valley, Bangalore, Pune, Delhi, NCR, Hyderabad, are they still going to be the centres for startups or things are going to change?
00:56:32
Akash: No, I think that's already happening by the way. So there's a lot of startups coming out from tier two towns and they're already unicorns. I think it's all about spreading beyond your gear, we will see startups coming out of tier two towns and becoming unicorns. So, the relevancy is just not tier-one cities now, it's anywhere and thanks to all this whole remote way of selling and remote way of working it just helps that point to a great extent. So I think the relevancy of startups is everywhere and anywhere.
00:57:14
Harish: Okay. And final one Akash, and this is going to be a bit left-field but I know this is your interest, what is the future relevance of one day cricket?
00:57:24
Akash: It would have been easy if you'd have asked what the future relevance of test cricket is.
00:57:35
Harish: Oh yeah, that is why I didn't ask you that.
00:57:38
Akash: I'm in favour of 20-20. I see less relevance of one-day cricket to be honest.
00:57:45
Harish: Okay, on that note, I think it is a fantastic chat. Sunday morning was well spent for both of us. I think one-hour-long conversation, time literally flew by. I actually just checked how long it was. It was one hour. So great insights. I think this is a lot for people to learn from your own career arc as well as how you have thought about it. I think that working backwards philosophy is great. People have generally done that in the context of companies but you know, that's essentially what you need to do for your personal career and personal journeys as well. So, a lot of takeaways from this interview, Akash, thanks a lot for this.
00:58:31
Akash: Thank you so much, and always a pleasure talking to you.