[CTQ Smartcast] What is Intellectual Investment Planning? With Sudhir Sarnobat
Sudhir Sarnobat is a first-generation entrepreneur and has been one of the most active subscribers of CTQ Compounds. He is a proponent of a notion called Intellectual Investment Plan which helps him to collect the dots and builds his crystalized knowledge.
In this Smartcast, hosted by CTQ co-founder, BV Harish Kumar, Sudhir shares an actionable plan to start with the journey of becoming wiser everyday. If you wish to expand your horizons by consuming valuable content, this episode is for you!
Prefer an audio version of the Smartcast? Listen below.
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(Read the shownotes below or skip to the transcript)
SOME OF THE THINGS WE SPOKE ABOUT
What is an Intellectual Investment Plan?
Ways to decide which content to follow
How to construct your knowledge landscape over time
Why must one also curate the content they are consuming
How and why must one start early to develop a detailed worldview
How an IIP helps to build a mindset and philosophy
PLUS
Tips to make the most of your time to consume content
AND
How reading helps you connect the dots
LINKS TO PUBLICATIONS, BOOKS, PLATFORMS AND PODCASTS MENTIONED IN THE SMARTCAST
PUBLICATIONS
BOOKS
PLATFORMS
PODCASTS
Econ Central by Amit Varma and Vivek Kaul
OTHERS
If you enjoyed this Smartcast, you will also like How Outside-In Thinking Helps Create Value For The Future, With K.S. Prashant
TRANSCRIPT OF THE EPISODE
00:00:00
Harish: Sudhir Sarnobat has been one of the most active subscribers of CTQ Compounds. CTQ Compounds are designed to help you build a regular and sustainable routine that compounds over time, and you grow professionally and as a person. We've adopted this philosophy from the notion of compound interest, which has been called the eighth wonder of the world by Albert Einstein. So when Sudhir talked about the notion of an intellectual investment plan, we were intrigued and got him to explain it to us. How CTQ Compounds fits into his IIP, how he finds time to collect all the dots he does, how he builds this crystallized knowledge and how it helps him professionally. Sudhir has given an actionable plan to get started on a similar journey. I'd highly recommend this episode to anyone who's looking for ways to expand their horizons and wants to build a systematic plan to become wiser everyday. There are a lot of links in this one, so please check out the show notes and get subscribing. Like Sudhir, if you are looking to read widely and wisely, please do check out our different compounds on www.ctqcompounds.com. For more on systematic upleveling, please do check out the website of our mothership www.choosetothinq.com. On the homepage, you’ll find the links to subscribe to our Weekly Smartletter and Telegram Channel, where we share anecdotes, discount codes and articles to help you uplevel for future relevance. And now let's listen to Sudhir reveal the secrets of his intellectual investment plan.
00:01:57
Harish: Hi, welcome Sudhir. Welcome to this CTQ Smartcast.
00:02:00
Sudhir: Hi, thanks. Thanks for having me here. Thank you.
00:02:02
Harish: So Sudhir, this is going to be one of the most interesting Smartcast that I am really looking forward to because this is the first time I'm talking to somebody who's come up with a completely different term which is a take on the very well known Systematic Investment Plan, but you call something as IIP. So what is IIP all about? Can you talk about that?
00:02:27
Sudhir: Sure. So basically, I have been doing SIP for the last four or five years, and I know how that basically has a proper goal. And one looks to basically go to a certain kind of financial goal in life. And I was thinking about how we do that for money, but what do we do for our knowledge or our growth or our self-development? And then I said, “Okay, people do sporadic efforts, but then do we do something structured?” And then I was thinking about it. And then I thought about the idea that basically the way I put money aside for SIP, I need to really give money aside for my IIP, which is an Intellectual Investment Plan. I said that's the kind of commitment. So it sounds sort of like putting your money where you want to really grow, that puts money on the table. So that's how I basically decided on a basic sum to start with, a small sum, which I went on growing over a period of time. So I basically spend that money diligently every month. I buy books, I buy subscriptions, I basically support podcasts, I support certain online websites, that's basically the kind of structure and I think that's the structure, which has helped me, I've started doing this couple of years back. And it has helped me pretty well in terms of doing structured efforts to build knowledge and become a better person.
00:03:56
Harish: This is fantastic. Because this is perfectly in line with what we call compounding, the reason why we call it CTQ Compounds is that you do something small, you do something regularly and over a period of time, it compounds right. So this is you're like our poster boy for CTQ Compounds right now. As part of this IIP, what all do you do? You mentioned books and websites. So how did you start these websites and which websites to follow, which courses to take, which books or which authors should you support? This is almost like being a patron as it was, you know, back in the day where the Maharaja used to be the patron for the fine arts right? This is something like that. So how do you decide what to support?
00:04:48
Sudhir: So basically, I have my personal interest. So I am basically interested in history a bit, I am interested in economics, more so behavioural economics. That's something which interests me a lot. I like politics and society. So that's another area. And as I have been in business for almost around 20 years, business management and work culture are the areas that are of interest to me. So, I started with that. Basically, I started reading books very early. So I came from a Marathi background, but then picked up on English and then picked up on management books way back. But that was not really happening in a structured format. A couple of years back, I started doing this seriously. So I read quite a lot on politics and economics, multiple books, that was the first start. Then I got hooked on the Amit Varma podcast, The Seen and The Unseen, which was another kind of a hook. And then the pandemic really helped, because there was a lot of time available, doing chores at home. What do you do with that, and then that complete voice in the head kind of helped a lot? That also became a source for picking up good books, because these notes are exhaustive. So these notes started coming almost way back after the 18-19th episode. Until then, there were no notes per se, but then this really helped well. Then I also do some subscriptions online. So listening to podcasts is one and supporting the podcast. I also listened to EconTalk, which is Russ Roberts’ very famous podcast, amazing a16z, which is basically Andreessen Horowitz podcast. That's interesting. Then because of Amit Varma, Shruti Rajgopalan’s Ideas of India and then Grand Tamasha by Milan Vaishnav. Now, those are interesting ones. I also listen to the Knowledge Project by Shane Parrish, that's a good podcast. So these are the podcasts, wherever there is a subscription, I pick up a subscription so that I get access to all the notes and the kind of community. But whenever it is not, then you just listen to them. So those are the ones that are basically from the podcast side. On the subscription side, New York Times, Washington Post, then HBR is one which is a subscription for almost three-four years now. I also subscribe to Caravan, it is one long-form of fantastic investigative journalism, their stories are amazing. I read through that. Atlantic, Guardian, New Yorker, these are another few. Wired, Farnam Street, these are basically US-based. Then for business and startup, I read The Ken and Morning Context, these two for business. I'm also basically trying to understand what's happening on the finance side of the world. So Capital Mind is another one that I read. So I also had paid a subscription for a couple of years from them. So I was dabbling into a little bit of investment at that point of time. I also read Collaborative Fund, and then Marginal Revolution, and MRU, which is the Marginal Revolution University, spent time on that. So these are roughly the kind of things that are too many things but then I don't do justice to all of them. But then I have those subscriptions. And so I generally get things in my inbox. And then if something is interesting, then I go and then read and then maybe I'll read a couple more. That's how it happens. But the subscriptions, so there are different thought processes there, I feel that if you don't keep them alive by subscription, they will not be alive. So I think you need to do it. Maybe you will use it once in a while. But then it is better to subscribe to these magazines or these websites, or maybe buy books, than buy shoes that you won't wear or buy clothes that you won't wear. Because the pandemic has really shown all the clothes are in the closet and not come out. So I think it is better to spend on these things. As you said, a patron is a big word and Maharajas can use it but in a small little way what one can do, one should do because I think the attention span of people is going down. And with that people are not really reading quite a lot that they should read. Are they even listening to the way I'm talking about podcasts? I'm not sure. I think very few people do that. So I feel that it is our duty to keep them alive. That's our kind of contribution for the future generation. So I have a 20-year-old son and he reads quite a lot. But I don't see that happening much. And I feel that we need to keep these good magazines, magazines like Atlantic, New Yorker, those are like fantastic magazines, and they should remain alive. So with a subscription, one must definitely buy it. That's the kind of thought process.
00:10:19
Harish: Right. So there are many things for me to explore here. So the one question that came to mind is when you talk about this, that, you know, this is almost like a moral responsibility to keep these things alive. That's for the greater good, good of the society. But is there something more selfish as well? What do you think about this, or in terms of your personal growth?
00:10:41
Sudhir: So the journey is basically from personal growth only because the stories are amazing, the kind of knowledge that you get with them, the kind of clarity and multiple things. So apart from these, one of the big impacts on my learning for the last year has been your CTQ Compounds. Because of that habit of reading I have, it's like, I have to finish this before 10 o'clock. So I have two, three, multiple timelines by which I try and finish things. So generally my first thing when it strikes 10 o'clock and CTQ comes in, my thought process is first how many words. So if it is 1000 words, then maybe I'll finish it immediately. But if it is 3000 words, then maybe I'll do it at around two o'clock. So those kinds of things. So here, the focus was always on personal growth, the focus was always on, I think, reading a wide variety of different subjects. So I'm not too much into technical, I don't go too technical, but I go something that basically gives me a worldview of things. And all these magazines, they kind of give that and then those helped me connect the dots. So I think Amit, on his podcast, once said that by reading more and more, basically, you collect as many dots as possible. And that collecting the dots will basically make your picture or worldview, a high definition view. So you basically get more and more clarity, we basically are moving in life, when we are moving in business, life, basically, we are getting a 10 feet visibility, maybe about the future. But now by bringing these more and more dots, maybe you will get 20 feet, 50 feet and 80 feet. So that visibility, that clarity that comes well. So the whole idea about reading more is about collecting as many dots as possible for personal development. That's the thought process. Yes.
00:12:38
Harish: Right. Yeah. So you talk about collecting dots. And I think it's a big component of building future relevance. If you want to build future relevance for yourself, for your organization, you need to have curiosity, and you need to make sure that you reduce the unknown unknowns as much as possible, you will never be able to eliminate them. But, keep building this sense, it's a continuous process. So with that in mind, do you also deliberately look at filling any gaps or holes in how your knowledge landscape is being constructed over a period of time? How is it evolving?
00:13:17
Sudhir: So basically, I look at it, our life as basically, something which is external is the markets, the society that we live in, and the state that is there. So these three parts, that's one. The second is about knowing oneself, which also helps you know others around you. So these are the kinds of areas that I want to understand more and more. The more I understand about society, the more I understand about people, the more I understand about markets, the more I understand about business. The more you understand about the state, the more you're able to understand about the power play, the more you understand about yourself, you understand your relationships, how you basically treat others, what's the kind of right way of living, those kinds of things, basically, give me a kind of a peek into the world around me, and help me understand that world better. So as you said, when we read a lot, we basically are trying to create, reduce the unknown unknowns. That's right. But also the unknown will always remain and how do you live with the unknown? How do you live with that kind of ambiguity in life? I think that grey; life is not black and white. So how do you live with grey? So I always keep whenever we hire a sales guy, we always look at whether that person can remain in grey, because when you are basically pitching for some order, and then we are ultimately getting an order, that entire period is grey. And how does one leaving that grey peacefully is what matters and that makes a great sales guy? So I always see that as a kind of a quality that needs to be built in an individual. Over a period of time I have built, I can say that I can, whenever there is an ambiguity in the situation, let that ambiguity sink in, and live with that ambiguity, and basically take life peacefully at that point in time. So I think how to live with these things is something which basically comes easily once you have that kind of understanding of the world around you.
00:15:34
Harish: Right, right. And you spoke about how this happened over the last three to four years, was there a trigger for you, when you said, “Oh, this is something missing in my life, I need to spend more time and effort curating the kind of content that I'm consuming.” Was there a trigger? Or it just evolved over a period of time?
00:15:54
Sudhir: No, I think there was a trigger. When I look back, I know. So around 2016-17, I sold off my company. And with that, and then a couple of years of garden leave with the people who bought the company, I had a lot of time on hand. So until then, I was building the company. And I was working like crazy. Yes, I was reading but that was not a priority. Suddenly, I saw that it's not there. And then suddenly there is a life and I wanted to do something different. And what is that different? gave me a lot of thought. And then that's how I got into thinking deeply about these things. I also looked at myself as a person, okay, find my identity until then, was that company founder, owner, whatever. But today, I'm again going to start something new, and how do I start? What is that that I will be looking at? What is that capital that I have now, that capital earlier was different? Does this capital need to be different? So with all those, I think that particular point, the sale of my company, was sort of a trigger, which basically got me thinking and got me actually getting into this. Now understanding and improving myself, because I said, ultimately, the investment in oneself now is going to take you forward in life. And that was kind of a realization, which basically brought me here.
00:17:17
Harish: Right. So two questions, I don't know, how easy are they going to be to answer. One is, had this real realization come earlier, do you think whatever you did with your earlier company, and with your life, in general, would have been different?
00:17:31
Sudhir: Not really, I think, what I did with my company, we were basically very committed, we were not a very big company, but we were a very good company in terms of customer service, what products we built, what business we built, what kind of service that we offered to people. The whole idea then was to make a company which if tomorrow, not there, people will miss it. There was a simple line that was that you should miss what you were doing and the whole thought process that we had, and we really did that. So that was something, I don't think I would have done something better, maybe? I really don't know, I never really delved into it. But I think what we did then was okay, but whether I would, I really don't know. I think that's a question that I need to think about now that you have sown that seed into my mind, I didn't think about it. If I had known all this, would I have taken a different decision, maybe would have behaved differently, would have nurtured the company differently, I think something that is food for thought, yeah.
00:18:41
Harish: Yeah, and the second part of that question, what advice would you give to others in terms of doing this more deliberately and starting earlier? Because this is a corollary to my first question, right? Because it is very easy to look at your story till now and say that “Okay, there needs to be a point where you get to a certain situation where you have been there, done that, sold a company, and now is the time to actually expand your horizons.” So, is that a view that you would subscribe to that you know, that you need to get somewhere and then do this or start earlier?
00:19:20
Sudhir: Oh, no, I think, start earlier. Yeah, definitely start earlier. Definitely. See, the point is, in the company, I went on doing what I did, and suddenly we had two three buyers who were interested in the model that we had built, and then they gave us money and that was kind of a return that we got on the business side, but knowledge does not give you that kind of return suddenly like that. For knowledge you have to do compounding there is no choice. You have no choice for knowledge. So what I did in the company for money cannot be replicated for knowledge. You have to do a small bit every day, every week, month and only then you will have a picture which is more, it is not suddenly that you move from absolute no clarity to great clarity. It's a journey, which comes through, as you said, compounding knowledge. And I think, yes, somebody would have met me 10 years back and explained this to me, or maybe I would have come across some interview like this, maybe I would have started much earlier. Yes, I would have definitely started much earlier.
00:20:27
Harish: Right. So, if you can talk about how this is helping this whole, you know, change of mindset and change of philosophy? How is this helping you in your professional life today? How do you think that that's contributing?
00:20:43
Sudhir: I think, quite a lot, my quality of decision-making changes because suddenly, you will see the same thing from multiple angles. And your conversations, whenever you are interacting with people, who are at very deciding positions across the table when you are doing business, your quality of interactions is very different. Because you're talking, you can basically engage others with different views, because your worldview is much better with the kind of thought process that one has. So that's the interesting part that has happened. With this knowledge, one thing that I did was that I started basically writing a bit for myself with this knowledge. gathering that I did, I said, “Okay, I need to get some clarity.” So I started writing. And that writing basically has helped me internally on business. So on the business side, whenever I come across some issue, and I'm just talking, and I'm not clear, I go back and I write. So recently, there's some disagreement that we had. And then I went back and I wrote a 1600 word essay. So that kind of thing happens because you have a structure much more, because, with these, you get a little bit of structure to your thoughts, you write them better, you write them more, and the structure comes much better. So I think on the business side, getting clarity of thoughts, by writing on things that have helped. I think, with all this listening, that I do my interaction, so in the recent example, we were basically applying for a loan with the bank. It's a dollar loan. And we were talking to the bankers and the bankers were talking about NPAs. And I could talk very comfortably with them on the whole idea of how the banks evolved. They were not the banks, the PSU banks were not really banks, but they were social institutions, and how they were actually pushing the agenda of the government, of taking the loans and all down the line to rural areas. And they also do Swachh Bharat Abhiyan whenever the date is there. So they are social institutions, they are not really banking institutions, and how then the financial institution, the institutional finance institutions, like IDBI, and ICICI came into retail banking and how there was no project finance understanding with the banks, and that's how the NPAs became messed up. So when I was discussing this with banks, the banker was surprised that people have this kind of understanding. So now, I don't know how it helps, maybe it helps in creating that rapport and then getting that loan pass is faster. But then you have some kind of unseen advantage. But I think the interactions, your interactions become better, you feel kind of connected, your engagement with people is better. So I think, with these diverse thoughts that you bring to the table, your decision making definitely improves and becomes much better. That's what I have seen very clearly: the quality of decision making is quite different and much better.
00:23:53
Harish: Yeah, yeah. So you are talking about so many different sources of content. How do you manage the time? What does your day look like?
00:24:03
Sudhir: So I think this goes back to my school. When I was in school, I used to come first until the sixth or seventh standard. I shifted the school and then I had some competition then went to college and much more competition. I saw smarter people around and then over a period of time, I realized that I am not the smartest guy the way I was thinking very early. So I said okay, if you're not the smartest, then the only way to beat the world is to be disciplined. So I've been taught that I need to move to the discipline side. So I moved to that part. I generally avoid as many distractions as possible. I avoid distractions. Deep Work by Cal Newport, you know that book, so that's something which has helped, Atomic Habits by James Clear, that has helped. Those two guys and books basically helped me a lot. I use those methods to get a lot of time available. So what I do is basically have a routine of time. So get up early at around 5, finish my exercises, then have around 1.5 hours for readings, then start the work, then maybe around afternoon, spend some time on reading. All my travelling is always with podcasts. So listen, when you're travelling, evening, again, around eight to nine, nine to 10, roughly around, get time for reading. So these are the things, I am not on Facebook, I am not on Instagram. So those are the distractions that are cut. At Twitter, I used to have a self-imposed limit of around 50 people to follow, which I have now relaxed because I wanted to get those advantages of serendipity. So I thought that I need to improve. I almost follow around 180-190 people now. So Twitter is a place where I get content, great content. So I generally use that for a collection of ideas from there, but no TV at all. I don't listen to the news. So there is no TV. So there is no news at all. So those are the distractions, which I have kind of kept away. So I think you have so much time and what you do with that time matters. So I think the biggest point is a distraction. Removal of distraction. Also, I use the app, Threader app which basically picks up all my threads on to Twitter, I also use Readwise which has helped a lot. What I do is that articles from CTQ, the books that I read, I generally take books on Kindle now so that highlights are easy. And then highlights are pushed to Readwise, and then I everyday morning at a fixed time. So once I finish my exercise, I get into stretching. So when I'm doing stretching, I have around 10 minutes of stretching at that time, I basically go read and go through my Readwise. 15 kinds of notes every day, I go through so it keeps on pushing the stuff that I have highlighted over a period of time. And the more frequent less frequent, those kinds of settings you can do. So Readwise has been one of the great help for that. The notion is where I take notes again. I mean, now I am currently doing some work. I'm a member of the Ascent Foundation, which is a Harsh Mariwala kind of initiative. So I am doing some work there. I'm basically taking a class, a cryptocurrency class for pupils with almost around 50 odd friends who are part of that and while learning, I am teaching everybody on cryptocurrency that will get over by around August-end. After that, I want to get into this productivity seriously. So Obsidian is something that I have downloaded, I want to see how it basically helps. So knowledge management, whatever I'm reading, whatever I'm listening to, I want to build notes around that. I want to kind of build an entire knowledge management project. So something I will do by this month. And once I'm through with my cryptocurrency class, that is the next project that I want to take. So these are the things which basically I use to manage the knowledge.
00:28:35
Harish: Right, right. And the teaching bit again triggered a question. So has that been a very deliberate way of manifestation of your curiosity and learning? As Feynman says, the best way to learn something is to teach it. So was that a very deliberate attempt to learn, to go into detail?
00:28:55
Sudhir: Absolutely, so I think that's the same again, Krish Ashok’s podcast with Amit. He talked about the same thing that teaching is the best way to retain knowledge. So basically, when a cryptocurrency class where people were wanting to know about cryptocurrency, and they did not have anybody then they said, Okay, why not? Let me just take the lead. So I basically took the lead. So what I did was that I built that entire course into why, what and how, and why cryptocurrency came into being what is basically cryptocurrency in a real sense. So we broke that entire chapter of the course into three months and then I went on to the amazing kind of knowledge available on YouTube. So it is only YouTube, through YouTube videos, we have built this entire thing. And I have to go through at least eight to ten videos before I push one. So that way, it helped me and then that creates a structure in the mind. And then also on the weekends, on whatever videos are sent on the week, I do a small quiz for everybody. So reading that quiz also basically helps in the retention of knowledge. So, yes, the initiative that I took for teaching was basically for my own growth, I knew that that is the best way to basically learn anything. So that is the reason I took it. Yeah.
00:30:21
Harish: Right. And you mentioned that you started following more people on Twitter to account for serendipity. So, again, has there been any other deliberate attempt to trigger serendipity or orchestrate serendipity?
00:30:39
Sudhir: That way, I am a bit of an introvert. So this is something where I can remain in the background and do. But I think what people can do basically is meet more people. I think that's something that one can do, which is what I want to do, but currently with the pandemic and new restrictions on going out. That's something which is not possible. Also, I think CTQ has been a great platform for serendipity because you don't know what's coming into the morning at 10. And it comes in, you consume, and you pick up so much from different places, the kind of blogs, which I have not heard of. So I think CTQ has been one of the fantastic examples of getting that serendipity, absolute advantage of that. So that's really been very good.
00:31:32
Harish: Right. All right. So final question. What would you recommend to someone who is listening to you speak, and gets really inspired, saying, well, this is fantastic, I'm going to get started. But obviously, you can't put that person at where you're at the level that you are, right now. So how does that person get started?
00:31:52
Sudhir: No, I think one is, if you are wanting to get into reading, then maybe if you are not really a reader, then start with fiction. So I always say that's a gateway drug for reading. So you basically start reading fiction, pick up anything that you would like, start with that and then move to areas. But I think the biggest problem that I see currently is time. So people do not have time, and that time not being there is actually because of distraction. So I think I will recommend that anybody read two books, Deep Work by Cal Newport and Atomic Habits by James Clear. I think these two would basically make concepts clear. And once those concepts are clear, then one can basically cut down the distractions, there are a lot of the tools available. So the focus tool that is available on the Apple ecosystem everywhere, and maybe I think, an Android also, there will be something available like that. These tools help. So you will basically keep distractions away and keep notifications away. So my WhatsApp which is used for business is on the third or fourth swipe, it's not on the first swipe ever, I don't put any notifications. My business emails are not on my phone, they are not at all, they are only on my desktop, they are not even on my iPad. So basically, these are these small, small hacks which one can use to keep the distractions away, the moment distractions are away, then you can basically spend time here, then time is available with you. And with the time availability, then you need to just think about how I can feel best with the good content? And that's how things would start. So I think getting rid of your distractions is the first key. I think that once you can do that, then the progress path I think is absolutely easier.
00:33:46
Harish: Yeah, I think this is fantastic. So this is a great workable plan because you've actually spoken about how to hack away this whole problem. Because first, you have to find time, you know, if you don't find that time, then yeah, this is all great to hear. But how do you actually go ahead and implement it? Right? So and to find time, I think you have to again, think it's like those five whys you are you're trying to figure out where it is that I can create that time in my schedule? And then once I have that time, then yes. You have given a bunch of resources. I'm sure when we publish the show notes for this, it is going to be full of links. I think it is also going to provide a lot of SEO juice to all those websites as well. So yeah, I think this is a great way to get started and not just for people who are just getting started but for, you know, even others who think they are much higher on that curve. I think there are some fantastic recommendations of sources of content, fantastic recommendations from you, Sudhir. Thanks a lot for this.
00:34:49
Sudhir: Thank you. Thank you very much for having me, it was great talking to you. Thanks, bye.